Michael Phillips clip

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Michael Phillips clip

Postby Bwil on Wed May 25, 2011 12:33 pm

I wrote a whole bunch about how I don't know where I stand with this but got distracted, timed out and didn't feel like typing it all up again.

Anyway Ray Aybeta is a student of Michael Phillips and he isn't a bullshit type person.

BTDT I know but I'm intrigued. Wonder what others think?



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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Bwil on Wed May 25, 2011 12:47 pm

I have a number of questions concerning this "ability" for lack of a better term. Besides the is it real part. Moving past this, if it is real then why do so few people seem able to do it? Is the training publicly available and its just a case of more of the same and eventually you will get it? Is it not available so the majority of people can't do this because they haven't been taught how? If thats the case then why the hell isn't it available? Its 2011 for fucks sake, do you want to die with no one knowing how?

Ima was my introduction to MA unless you count 10 years of scholastic wrestling. I admit my expectations were more than a little tinged with magical thinking. As my art and my mind grew up I became pretty dismissive of anything remotely resembling this kind of thinking much less demonstration. If questioned about it the majority of the time I'll answer that I think the internal/external division is at best one of curriculum progression and by and large a bullshit dichotomy. I'll even admit that lately I learn more about IMA from mma than anywhere. The combativeness is sorely missing from the majority of IMA training even for the small percentage of people who really want that, so it isn't a wast of time imo. That said, is it counter productive from developing a skill such as this and more importantly just how useful a skill is it?

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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby neijia_boxer on Thu May 26, 2011 3:26 am

i have my own reserved thoughts about the guy, he often rubbed people the wrong way on another forum. I personally liked some of his stuff like his Tai chi striking and rooting in Taichi. he talked about that he could easily able to defeat some of the top Chen style form and push hands champions, that they weren't even doing tai chi, and talking smack about wushu that I lost all respect for the guy and some of his knucklehead internet bullies. If you have ever been to China, wushu is a collective term for all chinese martial arts both Traditional and modern. while in the west is is associated with modern athletes guys in silk doing acrobatic forms. Traditional people say the word wushu all the time. I heard Fu Zhong Wen, chen xiao Wang, and other great masters use the word loosely all the time. anyways Michael bailed from the forum cause I stood my ground and argued with him. he lost the mental 'push mind' game ;p
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby yeniseri on Thu May 26, 2011 6:19 am

neijia_boxer wrote:... he talked about that he could easily able to defeat some of the top Chen style form and push hands champions, that they weren't even doing tai chi, and talking smack about wushu that I lost all respect for the guy and some of his knucklehead internet bullies.... he lost the mental 'push mind' game ;p


As long as an event is not reproducible (more than once), I usually have problems with it. And this is not to deny it is real or not!
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Peacedog on Fri May 27, 2011 11:17 am

xxxxxxxxxx
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby gosao on Sat May 28, 2011 10:00 am

The demo's seem great.. in live pushing nothing too out of the ordinary. Watch from :52 on.. he got taken off balance and drawn forwards a few times by the Chen guy.. who I don't think was all that great either. I didn't see any of that uprooting off balance on fingertip contact as shown in his demos. When he got caught by some of the Chen guys horizontal technique he goes.. 'you don't need that kind of stuff'.. as if it was lower level.. I don't think so.. When Phillips gets the Chen guys it just looks like he just used a forward triangulation to the spine. Not to say he isn't good, his sensitivity is obviously not bad, but it's not as good as he makes himself seem in the demos in practice.

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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby XinKuzi on Sat May 28, 2011 1:11 pm

gosao wrote:


I don't like what he seems to be saying in the beginning. He appears convinced he has one-shot knockout power... maybe he does :-\ , but he's teaching these people to expect to drop someone with one punch.

I find more value in training to achieve that kind of power, but also expecting that you will have to keep fighting/attacking after the first punch. Don't expect someone to just stand there while you attack, and don't expect that the first strike will end it.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby nianfong on Sat May 28, 2011 2:22 pm

If you already knew it was BTDT, why didn't you just start it there?
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby gzregorz on Sun May 29, 2011 12:02 am

I don't know anything about this teacher or what's involved in this discussion but I have met people who can do this type of thing.

Bwil wrote:I have a number of questions concerning this "ability" for lack of a better term. Besides the is it real part. Moving past this, if it is real then why do so few people seem able to do it? Is the training publicly available and its just a case of more of the same and eventually you will get it? Is it not available so the majority of people can't do this because they haven't been taught how? If thats the case then why the hell isn't it available? Its 2011 for fucks sake, do you want to die with no one knowing how?

Ima was my introduction to MA unless you count 10 years of scholastic wrestling. I admit my expectations were more than a little tinged with magical thinking. As my art and my mind grew up I became pretty dismissive of anything remotely resembling this kind of thinking much less demonstration. If questioned about it the majority of the time I'll answer that I think the internal/external division is at best one of curriculum progression and by and large a bullshit dichotomy. I'll even admit that lately I learn more about IMA from mma than anywhere. The combativeness is sorely missing from the majority of IMA training even for the small percentage of people who really want that, so it isn't a wast of time imo. That said, is it counter productive from developing a skill such as this and more importantly just how useful a skill is it?

B


I hear you. As to why it is so rare I would say it's because of the hours and years required to reach this level is in itself pretty extreme yet you would also need an instructor who could do this themselves. First it's hard to find someone who has reached this level and if you do it's hard to find people willing to commit to reach this level. I think of it as being similar to being an Olympian in gymnastics, most kids who do gymnastics aren't going to reach that level, the odds of someone reaching that level of gymnastics are probably something like a million to one.

As to mma or fighting I agree, in that just because someone can do these things in push hands it doesn't necessarily mean they can't get knocked out or choked out like anyone else. It is impressive stuff but in a fight involving real violence pushing people away probably isn't going to stop them from charging at you again and again. As JW says you need finishing techniques. Even at this level people make mistakes and as we all know you need to make one mistake in a fight for things to go horribly wrong. Personally I believe this is why sparring on some level is necessary to make you aware of these mistakes so you can remove them from being habits.

Impressive stuff none the less.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby RobP2 on Sun May 29, 2011 2:17 am

gosao wrote:


The punching at the start looks very basic to me - and the pushing nothing out of the ordinary either. It also has that vibe of when the teacher gets pushed he does a nervous laugh and compliments the guy, then corrects him about something to maintain his "teacherliness".
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Peacedog on Sun May 29, 2011 7:03 am

xxxxxxxxxx
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby gzregorz on Sun May 29, 2011 11:14 am

True, if they don't hit you hard or take you down first.

Personally I don't think it takes long to learn how to hit hard.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby ShortFormMike on Sun May 29, 2011 2:37 pm

he's good. definitely worked on these fajin skills at the exclusion of some other things. i've got pushes in on my teacher before but i've never ever seen him fall forward like MP has in his videos. my teacher calls that "responding to changes in the push hands". but if MP's fajin is real, my teacher doesn't have that.

his fajin oriented stuff is smart business though. everyone goes through (or stays stuck in) the phase of being fascinated with fajin.

i also notice his fajin is always against a particular structure in his opponent or if they're doing that stiff arm out thing, they are loading up on him.

i'd love to meet with him though for sure. i'd pay whatever his seminar fee is.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby neijia_boxer on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:22 am

i thought that hook punching looked horrible in structure.

1. looks like he almost loses balance after the strike.
2. hands are down to take a counter-punch on the chin.
3. over rotates and starts to give opponent his back.

horrible!
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Bwil on Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:48 am

If you already knew it was BTDT, why didn't you just start it there?


I suppose I misspoke. I wasn't completely sure it was BTDT so I put it in the video section for more exposure and that if the moderators wanted to move it they could. If there is anywhere that I would hope to have a reasonable discussion of the mechanics of this type of skill I would hope it would be here. I guess thats giving online communities to much credit but its a pretty specific group here with a higher comment IQ than youtube.

To be clear I could care less about Mr. Phillips personality or even relative skill. The only reason I posted his clip is because it represents the smallest relative degrees of separation from myself and someone demonstrating this type of thing. That being Ray Abeyta (actually appears in the second clip posted by gosao) who I know only marginally but sufficiently to believe he isn't the type to go in for much if any play acting. He did recently win that Chen village push hands competition thingy I believe?

Anyway there were a few questions it raised and I hoped this thread might address some of which has been done, some not at all. 1. What is happening? How does it work? and please leave qi out of the explanation. 2. Does this skill represent the result of some kind of secret teaching? 3. What is the value of keeping this kind of teaching secret. 4. What martial value does this type of skill represent vs. the amount of training time required to achieve it?

The biggy is obviously question 1 still no reasonable attempt at answering this one. Some responses for the others and thank you for those who responded. I could attempt to theorize an answer to #1 but its like me speculating about the view from the top of the mountain while standing some good ways short of the peak and I know what I think I'm curious about what others have to say.

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