the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I guess this belongs to BTDT.
If so, mods may shift it there or delete it.

Many martial arts have elements where the importance is given not only to physical attacks from enemies but also the psychic attacks. I once read somewhere of how in the very higher levels of Tai chi, you get a "glimpse of spirit world". Silat and other South East Asian arts concentrate on spirits a lot. Even Baji stylists have a saying, "When Baji and Pigua are mixed together, even gods and demons will not attack you". I am not sure if it is to be taken literally.

What are your views regarding psychic attacks? Do Chinese martial arts also concentrate on developing defense against spirits?

The only spirits I concern myself with are Whisky and Vodka

Just learning Taiji, Baji, or whatever, including meditation and qigong, is not any kind of preparation for dealing with spiritual attacks. A school might have some training in this area, but my guess is that it would be reserved for the most advanced and trusted students and is a separate and specific discipline from all others.

In fact, I've found this quite a can of worms just for discussion, but I would be interested to learn of any good, written resources on the topic. I would be wary of any how-to manuals on such things simply because it's too risky to try without existing skill and experience, as well as extremely trustworthy and competent supervision. The only book I'm familiar with is "Psychic Self-Defense" by Dione Fortune. It's got some basic examples of psychic attacks mixed in with stuff that seems very much over the head of the author, or at least the information provided is revealed at various levels of discretion and ability that makes you scratch your head and wonder, "She can do X, but she doesn't know how Y works? Odd."

So anyone know any good references on the topic?

Not sure if these links are still good, but these episodes of Mind, Body, and Kick Ass Moves offer a little bit of info. on the topic.

Mind Body and Kick Ass Moves - Pekiti Tirsia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfZ9C9vJso

Mind Body and Kick Ass Moves- Pekiti Amulets with Daniel Foronda explaining how to use the amulets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R2Ej-Y_65Y

Coiled_Spring wrote: Even Baji stylists have a saying, "When Baji and Pigua are mixed together, even gods and demons will not attack you".

The original saying, I think, is more in the lines of:

八極參劈掛，神鬼都害怕。劈掛參八極，英雄嘆莫及

"When pigua is added to baji, gods and demons will all be terrified. When baji is added to pigua, heroes will sigh knowing they are no match against it."

It's reasonable to believe it originated from the Li Shuwen / Liu Yun Chiao lineage, in which both arts are taught, and are said to have once been one art. Not everyone agrees on that. Anyhow, a more appropriate saying would be:

If Fedor Emelianenko knew Baji and Pigua... You'd shit yourself just seeing him on TV.

Now please, do yourself a favour and go read some Richard Dawkins books.

How many martial arts do you know of that incorporate psychic attacks in their curriculum? Not to say that such things are not trained somewhere, but my guess is that if, for the sake of argument, such training methods do exist, they are likely only taught at the most advanced levels, in which case, the practitioner is already likely a competent fighter and would have no need to rely on such things.

In the old days, I imagine that fighters just concentrated on fighting, and that if any among them were superstitious and concerned about psychic attacks, that would likely be a job for the friendly local daoist priest.

Of course, I can't really speak for any martial arts that I don't practice, which is most of them.

This is a multi-faceted subject, most of which would only be taught from one teacher to one student, and tailored for the level that student is on. Any serious teaching around it would be based around many years or decades, not short time.

To use "psychic" attacks or defence against a trained attacker in real violence - extremly unlikely. The person doing so would have to be highly skilled, and if they are, they would usually have avoided getting into a physical confrontation to begin with.

Training in this field carries high levels of risk for physical and mental health, unless layered, safewired, supervised and taught well over long time.

Dealing with external "spirits" is the field of shamans or those spiritual traditions who still have a living knowledge and detail about it, Daoism being one, but there are others. The saying about "and no ghosts can" refers to neigui, internal ghosts - programmings, fears, neurosises, lack of ethics, addiction to power - as well as anything external. It is used about many styles in China, probably from one core saying adapted by the speaker to whatever style they do.

There are acupuncture practices for cleaning out internal ghosts as well, protocols rooted in Daoist medicine.

Also, doing some versions of "psychic defence" can make people more visible for exactly what they want to avoid. Finding a good, skilled teacher is crucial, preferably one with good health and ethics, not one on a power high.

Just do good personal and physical MA and IMA practice and things will stabilize a lot, and this will make sure people have the stability to avoid falling into the trap of not knowing what is real and not real. 99% of the time, internal fear is just internal fear the person carries, nothing to do with any external ghost. Xingyi in particular has ways to use the Five Element practices to repair imbalances in the practitioners health for stability, but other styles can be used too.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

Coiled_Spring wrote:Many martial arts have elements where the importance is given not only to physical attacks from enemies but also the psychic attacks.
...
What are your views regarding psychic attacks? Do Chinese martial arts also concentrate on developing defense against spirits?

Most of the psychic attacks (if not all) come from people (read martial artists) themselves: I am No. 1, I can beat everyone, I can do everything, I can have a lot of women, I can drink, etc. So when teachers warn against psychic attacks, they usually mean our own demons: excessive sex, drinking, aggressivity, proudliness, intolerance, you know what I mean. To deal with them is your own task.
Another level is an ability to use psychological tricks to manipulate with opponent so that his ability to move or think clearly is restricted, he gets confused and therefore unable to protect himself. Teacher should teach you to deal with them or you can discover it on your own - usually by trying those tricks on others.
Another level is something like "psychic vampires" and similar sort of people (not spirits) - these are often mentally handicapped or people who usually do not know clearly what they do (these are not martial arts fighters) - they are low on their own energy so they simply need to refuel so they take yours... To deal with them is easy.
But I guess this is not what you asked...

The realm of spirits is completely different world. Spirits usually do not come into our world (they have no reason to come here) and we people usually do not go into their world. Normal people can not see it, feel it, enter it. However, if you somehow get into this realm (for example during advanced meditations), behave as a guest. The simple rule is: Never fight spirits. It is their world and they are at home there, you are just visitor. Even if you somehow can enter the world of spirits, they do not need to fight you, you are not any threat to them - unless you are at level with Buddha or Jesus. It is more than enough that they will show themselves to you and you will wet the pants...
And if they get lost and come to your world, still do not fight them - the best way is to leave them alone. Go away, or if it is necessary, protect yourself and go away - use common sense like in our usual earthly threats: if you see tornado, swarm of wild bees, negative/harmful wind or qi, whatever - protect yourself, hide, go away.
I do not know any martial artist teaching similar stuff but because this kind of exploring of "more remote realities" is my hobby, I developed some basic rules or "how to" for this kind of experiences:
1. You must always know very clearly where you are and what you are doing.
2. Whatever happens, you must always have control over the things.
3. You can go anywhere, do anything, but you must always have possiblity to return immediately if you do not have control or if there is any danger for you.
4. If anything more happens, you can pacify the danger or dangerous situation with loving kindness or love (if you know what it is, do not laugh, please), there is nothing stronger than that.
5. Behave as a guest.
5. Do not take what does not belong to you, especially happiness and wisdom, it is stealing. Etc.
Because this subject is quite problematic, I will finish here...

Miro

Miro wrote:[
Because this subject is quite problematic, I will finish here...

Miro

Ha-hah, that's what everyone says...because it's true!

Thanks a lot everyone, especially Daniel and Miro, for your mature replies. I know the subject is a bit "controversial" but still I somehow went ahead to start it here.

I have seen all the episodes of the BBC documentary Mind, Body, Kickass moves ( as also posted by Michael here) and it was there I began to see how, many south east asian martial arts incorporate practices to defend against "psychic or spiritual" attacks. Silat practitioners go to the graves to practice, Filipino practitioners wear some kind of "charged" Amulets, etc. I am from India, and especially in the countryside there are lot of Shamans who do "play with spirits" and it is not uncommon for people to pay them to do hard to their enemies. Earlier I was a skeptic, but nowadays I am beginning to open my mind to these things as these things are not limited in one region alone, but practiced in various diverse regions with different cultures.

I am sure Chinese too, especially the ritualistic Taoists, had ways of manipulating these "spiritual entities" ( dont know how to express exactly). I read a few years ago - I guess it was an article by Feng Zhiqiang - who wrote that in the very higher levels of Tai chi, you will be able to "see these things".

I recommend The Dark Forces: A Guide To Self-Protection by Quentin Trimble.

Coiled_Spring wrote:I guess this belongs to BTDT.
If so, mods may shift it there or delete it.

You guessed right, and next time do everyone a favor and start threads like that in BTDT.

For taoist sorcery (including description of non-martial spiritual attack and subduing spirits etc.) see this:
http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Master-Chu ... 755&sr=8-1

Miro

It is delusional to think that one can "play" or "explore" this kind of realm and be safe from it. I have a friend (lives out of town) who seems to be getting more and more into this sort of thing and it is not a pretty transformation. No he's not climbing walls nor is his head spinning around (yet) but oh, the utter delusion, the thinking that he is getting somewhere and the belief that he is somehow "gifted" and can "help" others with this kind of knowledge. And, shock of shocks, his health is completely in the shitter, I'm sure his gong fu is nearly gone, and personally he is becoming more and more isolated/reclusive/socially inept. No, any "wisdom" or "ability" that you think you are getting is the bait to trap you. There is no debate on this. As for this kind of thing in the martial arts, leave it the hell alone. Places like Africa and South East Asia have a lot of direct demon possession. Western society is not so much this way, as we do not have their poverty and rather have endless TV/entertainment/riches to entrap the soul.

Miro wrote:For taoist sorcery (including description of non-martial spiritual attack and subduing spirits etc.) see this:
http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Master-Chu ... 755&sr=8-1

Miro

That's interesting because that book is written by Michael Saso, an American who lives in Beijing and was introduced to me by a member of RSF a few years back. I'll have to check that one out, I suppose I can get it next time I'm in Hong Kong.