Chris' and Bodywork's thread

[Chris Fleming]

Needing to ask the questions about size -with machine guns as a reply- is fine. It also openly states sort of where people are at in their understanding. I continue to be amazed at the "internal" martial art discussion forums I see more MMA /UFC mindset and limitations than ICMA gold.

Well, at least we all are coming to expect this kind of post from you. No need to be a broken record. Some here just can't rise to your level of greatness. I'd love to see a strictly internal martial artist in the UFC. Since you have previously said in another topic that "you break people", would you care to be the first?

[Bodywork]

Needing to ask the questions about size -with machine guns as a reply- is fine. It also openly states sort of where people are at in their understanding. I continue to be amazed at the "internal" martial art discussion forums I see more MMA /UFC mindset and limitations than ICMA gold.

Well, at least we all are coming to expect this kind of post from you. No need to be a broken record. Some here just can't rise to your level of greatness. I'd love to see a strictly internal martial artist in the UFC. Since you have previously said in another topic that "you break people", would you care to be the first?

That's an interesting response. Did you skip over the bulk of my post on purpose or by mistake?

Since you wanted to discuss the topic within the context of the UFC perhaps going back and revisiting all the earlier fights with 270 Lb Dan Severn getting choked out by 178 lb Royce will answer more questions. Then you also have the Sumo guy knocked by a 200 lb guy and on and on. Ans Kimo getting trashed several times by smaller guys, till he slimmed way down. You can also examine Judo's little Mifune tossing huge Americans with ease in open competition. It's just a view, but if someone wants to follow the quoted J.W.'s advice of trying to "win by brute force," I'd say you're a damn fool, but hey...opinions right?

Did you see something there not factual in regards to the topic? Is there an expressed level of understanding that you disagreed with?
Do you see any value of discussing how or what means smaller men used to defeat larger men on a regular basis in MMA fights when there were not weight classes?
Can you think of any advantage that internal training would bring to the fore in giving people more accessible power to manage throw atempts or shoot reistence and make their strikes-heavy-hand fight enders?
Winning by brute force as a concept is so "retarded" -meaning a throw back or limited understanding- that it isn't seriously considered by most people. Postional dominance, mental preparedness which is sustained by good cardio so you don't get desparate and can think, and good technique and training are just some simple external means to that end that come to mind loong before I'd ever consider brute force.

How pointing these things out portrays me as a god or superior is beyond me. I continue to point out logic fallacies and various facts sometimes staring people in the face. In this case those arguing for brute force- in the venue of their choice, the UFC and Judo. But, I guess you could always think like Dan Severn and bring that "brute force" to bear. I just know which side of that "understanding" I'd want to be on-not the one sitting their stunned, but the guy still breathing.
With any luck you may start to get that there are smarter ways to train.

[Chris Fleming]

I notice that is all of your 3 edits (so far) to your post you have not answered my question.

[Chris Fleming]

Before I even read another word from Bodywork: It's one thing to not get off your high horse. It's another to not even realize that you are on one in the first place. You are condescending to the uttermost on this thread and others. You are basically assuming that people on here don't already know what you know about the importance of practicing internal martial arts and the advantages that doing so will bring to the individual. Why do you think we train in these arts in the first place? You are saying that internal martial arts will make a stronger fighter. NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!! Still though, I give more respect to people who are actually out there fighting with what they have rather than ivory tower types who want to intellectualize the whole thing from the comfort of their own computer. Unless that is, you can produce your own professional fight record.

What's funny is that you actually mentioned Kimo, who has an awesome 10 - 7 - 1 record, with 4 of his last 5 fights being losses. Not the best example to make your case. And don't compare yourself to Mifune. Fight your own fights, make your own accomplishments. Training in, say, Sun style bagua does not make you an equal with Sun Lu Tang.

Simply practicing internal martial arts with all the theory in the world will not necessarily be there to help you should a 265lbs fighter come running at you. Sure, you could SAY that you will do this or that, or that you will "break him", but it is a different matter when it comes to actually doing it. One needs only to look at UFC's early days to see strictly traditional martial artists, and how they did in those events. Now personally, I believe that a truly skilled internal martial artist would make quick work of most fighters of today's MMA world....maybe. It depends on the fight. Perhaps internal skills will slowly come into MMA's next evolution.

But, please, keep the bullshit to yourself OK?

[Bodywork]

You are saying that internal martial arts will make a stronger fighter. NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!! Still though, I give more respect to people who are actually out there fighting with what they have rather than ivory tower types who want to intellectualize the whole thing from the comfort of their own computer. Unless that is, you can produce your own professional fight record.
Simply practicing internal martial arts with all the theory in the world will not necessarily be there to help you should a 265lbs fighter come running at you. Sure, you could SAY that you will do this or that, or that you will "break him", but it is a different matter when it comes to actually doing it. One needs only to look at UFC's early days to see strictly traditional martial artists, and how they did in those events. Now personally, I believe that a truly skilled internal martial artist would make quick work of most fighters of today's MMA world....maybe. It depends on the fight. Perhaps internal skills will slowly come into MMA's next evolution.
But, please, keep the bullshit to yourself OK?

Bullshit? Well ya caught me with a few drinks in me after training all day so what the hell...

You just slung enough to keep my garden going for a few years. You haven't addressed any substative points, and instead decided to attack me and I guess anyone who doesn't "have a professional fight record" for bringing up salient rebuttals to the locker room banter about fighting big men with machine guns and farts. How could I have possibly expected better after reading the thread.

First why are you including me with "traditional" martial artist you know or have trained with?
You are either defining me by -them - or them by me, or you are defining me with your own personal fears and shortcomings. Just how is that fella?
I on the other hand only "defined" the level of conversation here and left individuals out. Push some buttons did I, Chris?

Calling me a traditional fighter is simply hilarious. I never was just a TMA -ever. As for what to do in using internal skills with a larger fighter? Why stop at 265 how about a 267 lb judoka? How about 280 6' 3" MMA/ wrestler/ powerlifter on a regular basis? How about a fat but powerful 310lb ex Collegiete champion wrestler and his 240 lb powerlifting /wrestler little brother?. How about a slue of various grapplers, and martial artists over the years? Mores the point, I have trained smaller guys to fight and handle larger men as well. How about grappling for 30 yrs? And last, since we're talkng about bullshitting and your presumptions-just how big do you think -I am- zipperhead? And how about stepping outside of mat time, since we're on the topic of qualified opinons- how many bar brawls you been in with more than a few large guys? How many men have you knocked out in your life? How many bones broken? How many times you been stabbed or booted in the face and head and had stitches from your extracirricular activities? And all that still doesn't mention contemporary wanderings. You don't know me or anything about me. Others here do. Maybe you're referring to your own training when you talk about ivory towers and computers. You sure as hell aren't talking about me fella.

FWIW, I didn't talk down to -everyone here. Most on EF I have read know way better than to engage in the level of talk in this thread. Some of you just happened to reveal where you're at with comments and thoughts rivaling that of people with little or no head-to-head experience. if that shirt fits you -wear it. Just don't equate your level of knowledge and experience to mine because you happen to own a keyboard too.
The level of presumption in your reply is only exceeded the arrogance with which you stated it. I was at least staying on topic. Nice sidetrack attempt since you apparently don't have much else to say. When you can't argue law argue the merits and when you can't do either, badger the witness

[Chris Fleming]

You are saying that internal martial arts will make a stronger fighter. NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!! Still though, I give more respect to people who are actually out there fighting with what they have rather than ivory tower types who want to intellectualize the whole thing from the comfort of their own computer. Unless that is, you can produce your own professional fight record.
Simply practicing internal martial arts with all the theory in the world will not necessarily be there to help you should a 265lbs fighter come running at you. Sure, you could SAY that you will do this or that, or that you will "break him", but it is a different matter when it comes to actually doing it. One needs only to look at UFC's early days to see strictly traditional martial artists, and how they did in those events. Now personally, I believe that a truly skilled internal martial artist would make quick work of most fighters of today's MMA world....maybe. It depends on the fight. Perhaps internal skills will slowly come into MMA's next evolution.
But, please, keep the bullshit to yourself OK?

Bullshit? Well ya caught me with a few drinks in me after training all day so what the hell...

You just slung enough to keep my garden going for a few years. You haven't addressed any substative points, and instead decided to attack me and I guess anyone who doesn't "have a professional fight record" for bringing up salient rebuttals to the locker room banter about fighting big men with machine guns and farts. How could I have possibly expected better after reading the thread.

First why are you including me with "traditional" martial artist you know or have trained with?
You are either defining me by -them - or them by me, or you are defining me with your own personal fears and shortcomings. Just how is that fella?
I on the other hand only "defined" the level of conversation here and left individuals out. Push some buttons did I, Chris?

Calling me a traditional fighter is simply hilarious. I never was just a TMA -ever. As for what to do in using internal skills with a larger fighter? Why stop at 265 how about a 267 lb judoka? How about 280 6' 3" MMA/ wrestler/ powerlifter on a regular basis? How about a fat but powerful 310lb ex Collegiete champion wrestler and his 240 lb powerlifting /wrestler little brother?. How about a slue of various grapplers, and martial artists over the years? Mores the point, I have trained smaller guys to fight and handle larger men as well. How about grappling for 30 yrs? And last, since we're talkng about bullshitting and your presumptions-just how big do you think -I am- zipperhead? And how about stepping outside of mat time, since we're on the topic of qualified opinons- how many bar brawls you been in with more than a few large guys? How many men have you knocked out in your life? How many bones broken? How many times you been stabbed or booted in the face and head and had stitches from your extracirricular activities? And all that still doesn't mention contemporary wanderings. You don't know me or anything about me. Others here do. Maybe you're referring to your own training when you talk about ivory towers and computers. You sure as hell aren't talking about me fella.

FWIW, I didn't talk down to -everyone here. Most on EF I have read know way better than to engage in the level of talk in this thread. Some of you just happened to reveal where you're at with comments and thoughts rivaling that of people with little or no head-to-head experience. if that shirt fits you -wear it. Just don't equate your level of knowledge and experience to mine because you happen to own a keyboard too.
The level of presumption in your reply is only exceeded the arrogance with which you stated it. I was at least staying on topic. Nice sidetrack attempt since you apparently don't have much else to say. When you can't argue law argue the merits and when you can't do either, badger the witness

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Judging from this post and the 8 edits (LOL, at the time of this writing) that you have done, it looks like you've gotten your buttons pushed here man, not me.

Like I said before, no need to be a broken record. If you and others (who you say are on here) believe that we are just a bunch of know-nothing idiots, then walk on. Keep the ivory tower arrogance to yourself. Or at least contribute something with some substance. "Salient rebuttals"? Such as? Your posts are little bits of nothing. You claim to be an expert, and may even be one, but you really aren't saying much. All you seem to have, in this post and others is something along the lines of "I've fought in bars, i've fought wrestlers, i've fought blah blah blah, i've been stabbed, none of you on EF know what you are talking about, CMA is really good, blah blah blah..." Little bits of nothing. I mean really, what do you want? People to say they are impressed with a person who doesn't use their real name on internet forums who comes off as condescending and arrogant literally at every chance when they post? Expert or no, master or no, internet or no, you are dealing with adults in a discussion so please act your age, whatever that is. I mean shit I even had people PM'ing me after our first exchange saying that you are awesome in martial arts but have the social skills of a small child. If you have the skills, then share your wisdom, not your arrogance. Time to grow up.

[WILLIE]

Needing to ask the questions about size -with machine guns as a reply- is fine. It also openly states sort of where people are at in their understanding. I continue to be amazed at the "internal" martial art discussion forums I see more MMA /UFC mindset and limitations than ICMA gold.

Well, at least we all are coming to expect this kind of post from you. No need to be a broken record. Some here just can't rise to your level of greatness. I'd love to see a strictly internal martial artist in the UFC. Since you have previously said in another topic that "you break people", would you care to be the first?

That's an interesting response. Did you skip over the bulk of my post on purpose or by mistake?

Since you wanted to discuss the topic within the context of the UFC perhaps going back and revisiting all the earlier fights with 270 Lb Dan Severn getting choked out by 178 lb Royce will answer more questions. Then you also have the Sumo guy knocked by a 200 lb guy and on and on. Ans Kimo getting trashed several times by smaller guys, till he slimmed way down. You can also examine Judo's little Mifune tossing huge Americans with ease in open competition. It's just a view, but if someone wants to follow the quoted J.W.'s advice of trying to "win by brute force," I'd say you're a damn fool, but hey...opinions right?

Did you see something there not factual in regards to the topic? Is there an expressed level of understanding that you disagreed with?
Do you see any value of discussing how or what means smaller men used to defeat larger men on a regular basis in MMA fights when there were not weight classes?
Can you think of any advantage that internal training would bring to the fore in giving people more accessible power to manage throw atempts or shoot reistence and make their strikes-heavy-hand fight enders?
Winning by brute force as a concept is so "retarded" -meaning a throw back or limited understanding- that it isn't seriously considered by most people. Postional dominance, mental preparedness which is sustained by good cardio so you don't get desparate and can think, and good technique and training are just some simple external means to that end that come to mind loong before I'd ever consider brute force.

How pointing these things out portrays me as a god or superior is beyond me. I continue to point out logic fallacies and various facts sometimes staring people in the face. In this case those arguing for brute force- in the venue of their choice, the UFC and Judo. But, I guess you could always think like Dan Severn and bring that "brute force" to bear. I just know which side of that "understanding" I'd want to be on-not the one sitting their stunned, but the guy still breathing.
With any luck you may start to get that there are smarter ways to train.

Interesting chat! sounds like someone i met who has some things in common, you wouldn't happen to be(d. h****N) out of S,ma. would you???

[Chris Fleming]

Uh oh...

[WILLIE]

Uh oh...

ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
still recovering from that dude a year later! cant be! ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if this is who i think it is,ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seen his style aikijujutsu, little different though,he's soft on the inside (yin) which makes him hard on the outside.(yang)

pratices intent to the max. (hand movements and techniques are a small part of his game)

cheers

[Bodywork]

Willie
Yes that would be me, but you have me at a disadvantage...who are you?

[Chris Fleming]

Uh oh...

ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
still recovering from that dude a year later! cant be! ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if this is who i think it is,ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

seen his style aikijujutsu, little different though,he's soft on the inside (yin) which makes him hard on the outside.(yang)

pratices intent to the max. (hand movements and techniques are a small part of his game)

cheers

That's awesome!

[WILLIE]

Willie
Yes that would be me, but you have me at a disadvantage...who are you?

i came to your (17 century style dojo) once with my girl hyunsook.

i'll give you a hint. (i'm just comfortable being myself). (earth)


oh, ya think you could control those demo's a little better,big guy?


this is me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ilVJArpTa0

peace big guy!

[Bodywork]

Hi Willie
I'm going on over 300 people between students and visitors who have come here- so I am at a bit of a loss in placing you. Sorry if the training was a bit intense. If it was in the nineties I was on the tail end of having a lengthy series of "visitors" who were here not to take a class as much as to test me and what I could do. I have lightened up quite a bit since then. How did it "take a year to get over training here?" That sounds like the healing time from a major car accident rather then some budo training. Anyway feel free to contact me and come back and play if you'de like. We have a lot of fun.
Cheers
Dan