for Mo

[chen quan]

something in here stinks.

[Dmitri]

Fong, I really do appreciate the sentiment, but it is REALLY not necessary at all. I really do not need his apology, I'm not hurt... he's simply not important enough to do that. I've been online long enough, and it is quite hard to really offend me -- one would have to go after my family or teacher or close friends or something. Everything else is just the usual internet's hot air... I just hope he might be able to see and understand the difference in what was said and how, between him and me. What is or isn't a personal attack, etc. It seems that he doesn't actually see/understand the differences there. (Or ignores them... though I hope it's the former.)


chen quan, this goes way back... He will tell you his side of the story though, I'm sure -- all fair and unadorned, in all its glorious complexity.
He didn't do anything wrong, nothing to see here... let's just move the hell on. Sorry I guess I should have exercised more self-restraint earlier.

[Tiebian]

Understood, and for the record:
Mo, we are and always have been the eF forum. The Yak's forum is an honorless piece of shit monstrosity that stole our name. But I don't go around spouting my opinion or stance about that all the time, since it is not something I would start a conversation to spout about. That's my opinion, but I don't dwell on it.

Well, you just did start a conversation about it. You've just spouted your opinion, unsolicited. I am (as I have written in my statements recently here) completely uninterested in discussing what you think of Brian at EF.net or having it out with you regarding your opinions of the past either. I have my own opinions that are very complicated, and not only do I say I won't spout about them or dwell on them, I actually follow through on that logic and don't spout about them or dwell on them, which is the opposite of what you are doing exactly here and now. Therefore, you are welcome to your opinions but I am not interested in discussing them publicly, as I have already stated, very, very clearly.

So I'd encourage you to not mention that other forum,

Cripes I would not want to do that would I? I'll just follow your lead then and not mention it, wait.. you are doing a lot of mentioning of it here. I'll pass on following your lead at this point then?

Allow the status quo to exist just as mainland china and taiwan exist. You clearly didn't move on completely, as you claim

You sound very preachy here, and maybe that is your 'style' but I am again, going to pass on following you here.
What I did IS called moving on. Just because it does not involve coming to you on bended knee asking for simple absolution for a complicated problem that I do not agree with you 100% on, does not mean I cannot leave it in the dust.
According to your logic if I do not eat your sermon like steak and just blubber out an apology to everyone that means I am still holding a grudge? No I am not, I simply don't care about any of it, nor am I simplistic enough to believe that it is black and white.

so don't blame Dmitri and others for not as well.

I have not blamed anyone for anything at all, please get clear on what I wrote. I in fact offered to discuss with anyone who had a gripe they needed to resolve. That is not blaming anyone. I asked and will continue to ask for decent, polite behavior. That simply does not equal blame. If you think that not blaming someone means I must allow them to attack and insult me without regulation you need to think a bit more on that. It will never be the case that I offer myself as a receptacle for anyone's misguided, emotional release simply because you think I should not blame them and they feel hurt. I can avoid blaming anyone and still demand decency.

Mo, just apologize and move on.

Even if you don't think you did anything wrong, you have clearly hurt Dmitri's feelings with your remarks. Your statements are rejecting statements of FACT that Dmitri feels he has been wronged by you. Those are FACTS. Facts are undeniable. You are declaring the fact that he has opinions invalid, when in fact they are as valid as your own. That is arrogance.[/quote]

Yes, it is a fact, that Dmitri FEELS hurt. However, I have offered to discuss with anyone in private, and he is not interested. If there is a fact that Dmitri FEELS hurt, or some other member of this forum FEELS the earth is flat, it is neither my territory nor my automatic responsibility to change these feelings anyone might have especially in public. There may be a fact that he has a FEELING of hurt, but there is not a FACT that he is correct in his opinions of why he feels that way anymore than it is not a fact that the earth is flat, no matter how strongly someone else feels it.

I am not offering any blanket apology for anything. We are adults here and we can take responsibility for our own feelings and either move on, or discuss to work them out. Otherwise I am not on the payroll for this. If you are enamored with apologies, you can also make them for no reason or any reason you feel applies.

Remember humility. Acknowledge that you hurt him, apologize, and move on. If you want to improve yourself, dmitri's friendship, and your own public image, you might want to ask him how you can change what you say to prevent the wrong in the future

You are both preaching and overreaching here.
If Dmitri is "hurt" there is no automatic factual basis to claim that "I" hurt him. He in fact attacked me publicly and I responded with an acknowledgement of his lack of decency and courage resolve his issues privately as requested, and keep the mess off the public forum. I stand by that, I do not apologize for it.
We have no 'friendship" ( a very ridiculous thing for you to put forward here) and there is not nearly enough respect to ask for recommendations on how I might "Improve myself" from someone who self-describes as "having their period" on a public forum while they attack someone else's character unprovoked.

You are very far off any mark I can take seriously, and it is very preachy.
Again, if anyone wants to discuss anything specific that is not mindless ego-tripping conflict, in private I might be willing, but I am neither on trail, nor am I making any general or automatic apology, for anything.

You need to deal with this:
I am not on 'your team'. I am not on anyone's 'team'. I am an individual, who may discuss gongfu subject matter here. I have no allegiance to any website. Please do not preach to me. If you have an issue you can try to talk to me in private about it if you can remain sensible. Other than that I am neither particularly interested, nor am I bowing before you.

I you do not like this sentiment you are free to feel however you like about it and act accordingly. Unsurprisingly though, I will also ask you for decency if you disagree with my opinions.

...sorry I guess I should have exercised more self-restraint earlier

That would have been smart and decent, yes, and it was asked for.

[ashe]

it's not that complicated. The Yak stole the eF name. Pretty straight forward.

[nianfong]

Mo,
I apologize if I came across as preachy. I'm trying to improve how people interact and perhaps my approach was not effective for you. I often default to the direct "beng quan" style approach, and that was clearly wrong for you. Also I apologize for any hypocrisy I may have shown in my remarks, haha. As again, I was going the direct approach.

I am not asking you for bended knee or any of that. I welcomed you with open arms, remember?

But you need to remember that we are all of us fallible, and that how you choose to respond to people, even now in this newest post, portrays you as unwilling to acknowledge another's point of view, whether it is right or wrong. This is an observation of mine, which others may or may not share. What you do with that is up to you. If you can't acknowledge someone else's point of view, unless you agree with them, or otherwise deem their opinions worthy, it becomes difficult to have conversations.

To clarify, I'll give you an example. For all my disagreement with people like, say, Graham, about the "correctness" of his xingyi, I acknowledge his opinion. Just as I acknowledge yours. If I hurt him personally in my statements about his style, I would apologize, as that would not be my intention. Despite whatever he may say or believe, I like him as a person, and value him as a friend.

I'm not telling you to believe something, or what to do. These are my own observations. Do with them what you will.

-Fong

[Josealb]

You need to deal with this:
I am not on 'your team'. I am not on anyone's 'team'. I am an individual, who may discuss gongfu subject matter here. I have no allegiance to any website.

Dude...this is not a team, or a clubhouse, or clan or anything. Just a bunch of guys who have shared stuff in common, and differences, for a long time. The fact that you think Fong is asking you to choose sides, or that you are outside and neutral of what the Yak did, speaks a bit about your character.

Also i would like to say, that i fuckin knew Graham was lurking. He loves us.

[Tiebian]

I am not asking you for bended knee or any of that. I welcomed you with open arms, remember?

But you need to remember that we are all of us fallible, and that how you choose to respond to people, even now in this newest post, portrays you as unwilling to acknowledge another's point of view, whether it is right or wrong. This is an observation of mine, which others may or may not share. What you do with that is up to you. If you can't acknowledge someone else's point of view, unless you agree with them, or otherwise deem their opinions worthy, it becomes difficult to have conversations.

Ok thanks for clarification, however, let's not forget the recent past, like a yesterday perhaps...
I have yet to refuse to discuss anything, nor have I been unwilling to acknowledge anyone's point of view. I simply, and VERY clearly ( I have to say this again?) refused to discuss or acknowledge any opinions right or wrong IN PUBLIC. You must get this by now right?
That was my condition and I have stuck to it. Therefore, any 'opinions' wanting acknowledged, or discussions wanting haved, will thereby be done in private conversations for those angst ridden and/or brave enough to have them.

When anyone, such as Dmitri, or whoever attempts to have this discussion of their opinions or unprovoked insults that need attention, in PUBLIC, they will simply get called on for doing just what they are doing. Attempting to make a mess in public, to have a public trail in fear of having to deal with either me, or their emotions directly in discussion.

We have the equivalent of Beng Quan in Taijiquan as well, so very directly I am saying that I have not yet, nor will I back off from this point. Anyone who wants to be outright hostile and attempt to insult or have a fight in public is going to get that direct sentiment, because I am not going to play that. Anyone who does not understand that BY NOW and continues to attempt to have it out in public will get shown to be being nothing but rude and hostile. It is pretty clear. Door A is open, if you insist on using door B, it is hard and it will not open simply because you chose to run into it as fast as you can.

To cast this type of attempt at a public mess and insult bonfire as if they are 'expressing their point of view' is either inaccurate or simply disingenuous. Insulting someone unprovoked is not 'expressing a point of view that needs acknowledgement.

...this is not a team, or a clubhouse, or clan or anything. Just a bunch of guys who have shared stuff in common, and differences, for a long time. The fact that you think Fong is asking you to choose sides, or that you are outside and neutral of what the Yak did, speaks a bit about your character.

Perhaps some people other than yourself do see it as a team or a club and that statement was for them. Whatever it is I am not party to it. I am just myself.
I did not state that he was asking me to chose sides, but to attempt to discuss with me, what he thinks of Brian and referring to him in insulting terms while at the same time suggesting I should not mention him, nor the other site nor it's history really DOES suggest that I must acknowledge his presented party line and not discuss any divergent thoughts of my own if I might have them.

If you cannot see that, you are not looking very closely, because it is easy. I specifically stated earlier that I would not be discussing nor party to insulting negative discussion of Brian (that is his name) nor anyone else. If someone attempts to discuss him negatively with me, then again, they are attempting to press those view onto me as if I either agree with them automatically or should be pressed to simply accept them. That is a type of pressure to get someone to fall in line with a group view that I am not going to be part of. I am reasonably observant and if you are too, you will acknowledge that this has just happened. Let's not play dumb, or at least I won't.

I cannot imagine exactly what you think my character is really, but I am fairly certain you are about as clear on that as what my actual involvement in the stupid, tired history of this forum really was.

[fuga]

Life would be so much simpler if we could all gather in a park, punch each other in the head, throw each other on the ground, choke each other out, and then sip coffee and watch the pretty ladies walk by.

-pete

[Tiebian]

it's not that complicated. The Yak stole the eF name. Pretty straight forward.

Actually there was a heck of a lot more than that happened, but it pretty ugly in all directions.
Perhaps honestly leaving it alone would be a better practice than dredging up ONE individual bone.

[thisisnotreal]

Life would be so much simpler if we could all gather in a park, punch each other in the head, throw each other on the ground, choke each other out, and then sip coffee and watch the pretty ladies walk by.

-pete

Dude, that's actually my plan for world peace.
Er... well; the other part consists of dealing with the people that insist on...er, you know, actually killing their enemies.
All weapons except for knives are forbidden....you'd have to be within arms reach of your opponent and risk your life, and watch the life spill out of your enemy while looking in his eyes.

best plan i'd have.

except, for you know, like actually living together civilly.

Um...since I actually typed this out; I do have another plan. This other plan consists of developing technology permitting a men-in-black like device whereby everyone's memory is selectively blanked and they thereby actually forget why they are mad.
et voila; no more grudges...we've all forgotten the whos, the why's and the what-the-fuck's. Hopefully as a by product all assholery will be instantaneously destroyed.

probably won't work tho.. pity
-josh

[cerebus]

Life would be so much simpler if we could all gather in a park, punch each other in the head, throw each other on the ground, choke each other out, and then sip coffee and watch the pretty ladies walk by.

-pete

I miss the Fairyland Fight Club gatherings...

[ashe]

Actually there was a heck of a lot more than that happened, but it pretty ugly in all directions.
Perhaps honestly leaving it alone would be a better practice than dredging up ONE individual bone.

context does matter, but in this case it's a straight forward issue. any attempts at perceiving the matter otherwise are just attempts at rationalization.

brian knew full well what he was doing, and chose to pursue the course of action regardless.

to be blunt, i harbor no ill will towards you for your decisions, hell i don't even have any ill will for brian, but i do think we should call a spade a spade...

[Josealb]

Oy, i disagree. I wont say its either a spade or a pick....i choose to be out of this discussion about choosing a name. Its called maturity.

[Dmitri]

Pete, like I said I offered him to get together a few years back, when I used to visit Boston area for work, but he wasn't interested... he said something to the tune of, "I have nothing to gain from such meeting", if memory serves. He's quite fond of typing though, it seems.

while they attack someone else's character unprovoked

Show me where I did that, you little hot-air baloon of a man.

[Tiebian]

Actually there was a heck of a lot more than that happened, but it pretty ugly in all directions.
Perhaps honestly leaving it alone would be a better practice than dredging up ONE individual bone.

context does matter, but in this case it's a straight forward issue. any attempts at perceiving the matter otherwise are just attempts at rationalization.

brian knew full well what he was doing, and chose to pursue the course of action regardless.

to be blunt, i harbor no ill will towards you for your decisions, hell i don't even have any ill will for brian, but i do think we should call a spade a spade...

SO you are saying that you too want to talk about forum politics with me in public? Thanks for being clear on that. I'll pass. Please do enjoy discussing calling any of it however you prefer though, on your own.

Pete, like I said I offered him to get together a few years back, when I used to visit Boston area for work, but he wasn't interested... he said something to the tune of, "I have nothing to gain from such meeting", if memory serves. He's quite fond of typing though, it seems.

while they attack someone else's character unprovoked

Show me where I did that, you little hot-air baloon of a man.

Maybe character was slightly the wrong word choice, but you are splitting hairs to cover up a real bald spot.
You are unable to write anything without being continuously nasty.
The simple answer is that you started out your participation with negative comments in public about my person, and the past having nothing to do with my practice or my video, and everything to do with your grudge and exactly what was requested to keep off the public forum.

To claim that you are some kind of 'victim' of an 'attack' is absolutely a piece of whining BS of the most malodorous nature. Hot air, in your case without the alleged balloon, is what is called goupi in Chinese. It suits your continuing insistence on having a fight, about a fight, many years ago, that you were offered to resolve but don't have the guts to face directly and already admitted you should have restrained yourself from posting publicly: It translates to dogfart, which is about the level of value of your current behavior on this issue.

Beyond that it is clear that you are still, actually carrying a massive torch of man-disappointment for having been snubbed a meeting with me. Since you have now made sure to clearly mention this disappointment TWICE in the last day here, it is clear that it matters to you and you want everyone to know about it.

If it was that serious a setback, be advised that your behavior here and now is exactly the same behavior that prompted me to pass on having any personal meeting with you in the past. I am sure you will protest publicly that even after dumping this personal issue all over the forum that you also do not 'give a crap' about it, yes...

however when you contemplate privately, why the heck you even posted this twice with passion, perhaps you should take a look at yourself and imagine that this type of behavior may not be that attractive to some people you hope might want to meet you.

I like to meet people who are nice and seem like they would be interesting and friendly, have common interests without antagonism. Does that sound like you at the moment? Your attitude towards me now is no different than it was before any of the politics that took place on these forums. Your particular attitude which was why I was not interested in meeting you, was exactly the same as it is now, regardless of your desire to blame any of it on forum politics.

Now, I think you folks have perhaps had enough time to air out your vague grievances in this little public moment. You gave it a good college try and I responded to you as much as I am willing to address it in public. I am not a particularly easy mark, so pat yourselves on the back, you did fine. But at this point, I think, give it a rest. Not one of you is coming out smelling like roses after trying to pull someone else into a fight in a toilet with you.