weighted pistols or barbell squats?

[Dmitri]

I disagree. Yang Taiji is all about getting on 1 leg, as is much of xingyi. Pistols are exactly that.

What I meant was that when you practice exercises like that, it's like weight-lifting, you train your muscle. I agree completely that a lot of Yang taiji is about one-leg ability, but it is even more about "mind leading body" which I don't see in exercises like pistols, etc.

After my first 4 years of taiji, at a "bad" school (where they only did form, without any corrections, poor structure, no proper mind involvement, etc.), I could do many pistols easily, as I did the form with thighs almost parallel to the ground, etc.
But when I came to my present school (10 years ago), my thighs were burning like hell and that was at very high stances, with thighs at about 45 degrees to the ground. I had strength but (forgive the inevitable cliche) it wasn't "internal". Hence my earlier comment. Others' mileage may vary of course.

[Bodywork]

We have had many active guys who lift come here to train internals. One fellow-huge power lifter- MMA guy was training in an upright stance, and after doing an hour of solo work was having a small women push on him. He kept having to stop, as the particular requirments of structure without flexing, was causing his thighs to burn so bad he had to keep sitting down.
Shocked at this-he tells us he sqauts something like 400 pounds, but the push of a small 120 women was killing him. He can't understand it. If all we're doing is using muscle, why the trouble? He could work out with her and throw her all over the room but the having to stand and receive load without flexation killed him.
IME, "tendon changing" and fascial sheet engagement explain a hell of a lot in what is being actively engaged and worked as well as tonus of antagonistic muscles without flexation. This whole body power is the power differential between the little guys and the big. So, trying to lift your way into better technique doesn't begin to grasp the heart of true power. Nor does understanding power through better alignment to do this or that technique. I was a 235 lb powerlifter wrestler /grappler when I met a little Jpanese guy who tuned my ass to a fair-thee-well. Oddly, it was only -after- I stopped lifing that my power went up. YMMV

[The Possible Human]

Dmitri,

Strength and even moreso endurance are very activity specific. If you take a marathon runner and put him on a street bike, he'll be gassed relatively quickly. It kind of goes into what I said earlier where you need to learn the new skill first before the attributes gained from other skills will significantly carry over. It is also suffice to note that stance training is relatively an isometric practice. Isometrics have been to shown to only increase strength in that exact angle of flexion (ie if you do your stances with your thigh and calve at 90 degree angles, then that is the angle where you'll see strength gain) with concurrent gains of strength within 15 degrees of that angle, but those gains exponentially decrease the further from the original angle of flexion you get. This would suggest that what you went through is expected and can be readily explained by exercise science.

I am a relative beginner when discussing "internal" mechanics as my experience is limited there. The one overriding factor is that muscles provide the main impetus for the motion of your body. Likewise with the exception of locking your joints, they provide the strength for you when you are holding proper structure and alignment. Now certainly there are biomechanically efficient ways to generate power which would allow a physically weaker person to have more power in posture and striking, but with all else being equal (ie being identical in skill and size), the stronger person will be able to generate more power in physical endeavors.

[Bodywork]

Yet we demonstrate unusual power advantage at all odd angles and in fluid motion. From static pushing on chest, hips, back, head, to grappling and having to make positional changes at speed.
These arguments are old, and I was on the "other side" arguing and being VERY dismissive of any notion that there was anything going on that lifting, exercise and sport science couldn't explain. Until I encountered a training methodology that I have yet, to see fully explained in a scientific model. Nor do I care to anymore. I don't explain it through mechanical or physics terminology, yet people grasp it and learn. Obviously generations of teachers did the same-and people learned.
I see people who often times suck-obsessed with trying to grasp things through physics and a physical model they can understand and thus never let go and feel. Similar to the thousands of no-talent music lovers who flock to say- Berkely or Juliard- to learn to "be a musician" only to discover the one thing you can't teach is...talent.
In a physical sense I also equate it to an an earnest but untalented ballerina trying to glean understanding through sport medicine and thus never learning to dance. Or if you prefer-a Judoka obesssed with the angles of attack and defense and doing all manner of sqauts and power lifting who never learned to feel and respond...and dance.

[Little Bai]

I seem to have missed the post where someone stated that he is going to use squats and lifts as an exclusive alternative to IMA training, because that is what is ranted against... as if doing pistols would cancel out the results of ones years of IMA training.

[Josealb]

These arguments are old, and I was on the "other side" arguing and being VERY dismissive of any notion that there was anything going on that lifting, exercise and sport science couldn't explain. Until I encountered a training methodology that as yet, I have seen fully explained in a scientific model. Nor do I care to anymore. I don't explain it through mechanical or physics terminology, yet people grasp it and learn. Obviously generations of teachers did the same-and people learned.

I see people who often times suck-obsessed with trying to grasp things through physics and a physical model they can understand and thus never let go and feel. Similr to the thousands of no-talent music lovers who flock to Berkely or Juliard to learn to "be a musician" only to discover the one things you can't teach is...talent.

This sounds very familiar to me...i wonder where ive seen this behavior before?

[Bodywork]

Okay
All things being equal I think they do not enhance your internal pusuits in any meaningful way, and will more than likely *harm* your pursuits. Training them later is an option, but we should find means and ways to test ourselves for a level of softness before doing a few (maybe 6 week) cycles of lifting-then rework back to a relaxed state. And isolated lifting-I thnk-is never a good idea. What makes an internal martial artist "feel" so strong isn't the size of his muscles. So if internal skills were someones goals-then trying to replicate that "feel" or level of attainment of "power" in any way through lifting?
Is a total waste of time.
That's just one man's opinion.

[The Possible Human]

Bodywork,

We are all entitled to our opinions, and if that jives with your personal experience, then I'd have a tough time arguing that seeing I'm admittedly inexperienced as far as internal pursuits go. Out of intellectual curiousity, do you have any objective data to back it up outside of your personal feelings? Any interesting scientific studies you can cite or even a logical breakdown of the how's and why's? I realize it's a complex issue and outside the scope of this thread, so no worries if you don't want to open up the can of worms. No hard feelings at all.

[Bodywork]

All we'd end up doing is debating and going no where and seeing some people get all pissed off.
You're in MA. I am in MA. come on out and we'll play and touch hands and talk about it over beer.

[Chris Fleming]

All we'd end up doing is debating and going no where and seeing some people get all pissed off.
You're in MA. I am in MA. come on out and we'll play and touch hands and talk about it over beer.

And where is your school located anyway? I'd love to see your claim about how you can lift weights without flexing anything some time.

[Ian]

Dmitri

Neither has much to do with IMA though, IMHO.

That's why I don't do IMA - we're allowed to do the fun stuff. Har har

I seem to have missed the post where someone stated that he is going to use squats and lifts as an exclusive alternative to IMA training, because that is what is ranted against... as if doing pistols would cancel out the results of ones years of IMA training.

Thanks.

I do olympic style lifts 3 times a week for 40 minutes each.

I practice MA-specific solo and partner drills 7 times a week.

Never said that I'm going to be dropping everything for pistols and squats.

[The Possible Human]

We should probably take this private.

[Bodywork]

All we'd end up doing is debating and going no where and seeing some people get all pissed off.
You're in MA. I am in MA. come on out and we'll play and touch hands and talk about it over beer.

And where is your school located anyway? I'd love to see your claim about how you can lift weights without flexing anything some time.

I've never said that Chris.
My place isn't a school, its barn in the woods. It's closed to the public and is by invitation only- though I have had visitors from all over the country for the last few years. Let play nice Chris. Everyone knows you don't agree with me. Point made there guy.

[Dmitri]

I seem to have missed the post where someone stated that he is going to use squats and lifts as an exclusive alternative to IMA training, because that is what is ranted against... as if doing pistols would cancel out the results of ones years of IMA training.

If one has sufficient understanding then it's a different story, although in that case I would have to wonder why would one be looking for "pure functional strength i.e. thousands years of powah" via exercises like that. The way the original question was formulated hinted to me that the exercises Ian mentioned were "external", and the "I don't do IMA" part of his follow-up post suggested that my suspicions weren't entirely unfounded.

Everyone has different methods and goals, I just expressed an opinion from my own perspective (since the exercise question was posted in the main forum, i.e. where one would usually be looking for IMA-related material), for whatever very little that's worth; like I said others' mileage will vary, nothing new there.

(I'm usually quiet about these things but yesterday's great workout and exchange of ideas at Dan's apparently brought up another wave of that damned IMA evangelical enthusiasm in me... No worries, it'll fade away soon. )

[bailewen]

I disagree. Yang Taiji is all about getting on 1 leg, as is much of xingyi. Pistols are exactly that.

Lewitt

Could you maybe explain what you mean? From what I remember of Yang Tai chi there is only one single 1 leg posture in the 24 set, and a couple in some of the sword forms, so I really don't get what you mean here. I don't know Xingyi at all so I can't comment. Also from a martial perspective it does seem somewhat counter-intuitive to want to stand on one leg.

Funny. My experience is the reverse. I can only think of 2 two legged postures our my whole 103 step form. The opening and the closing. Every single other move is either on one leg or transitioning between one leg or the other. . . after thinking through the form in my head actually I just came up with 3 more 2 legged postures. That makes 5 total out of 103.

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On the main topic, I agree with Bodywork.

Pistols are a good way to check yourself but I was told not to work on them too much as they can be bad for the knees. They are an interesting exercise though to be sure.