weighted pistols or barbell squats?

[Chris Fleming]

All we'd end up doing is debating and going no where and seeing some people get all pissed off.
You're in MA. I am in MA. come on out and we'll play and touch hands and talk about it over beer.

And where is your school located anyway? I'd love to see your claim about how you can lift weights without flexing anything some time.

I've never said that Chris.
My place isn't a school, its barn in the woods. It's closed to the public and is by invitation only- though I have had visitors from all over the country for the last few years. Let play nice Chris. Everyone knows you don't agree with me. Point made there guy.

Dude I'm not out to get you. I believe we made everything clear in PM. And unless I am mistaken, you did invite me to "play". So if you would tell me where exactly that would be, by PM or otherwise, that would make things more clear. Really, Dan, first your name and now this. Getting information from someone shouldn't be like pulling teeth.

As far as your claim about lifting things:

Oh yes you did: "I’m not training my muscles to contract and pump while lifting heavy objects, or working with cables, or training with iron digging bars. I’m training my body to maintain structure and contradictory forces AND NOT FLEX ANY ONE THING while under loads that are intended to break my connections. Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!"

Be it a barbell or a person being thrown or a vat of pickels or a plie of angry dwarfs, you said as stated above that you don't flex any one thing while under loads intended to break your structure, connections, etc.

[bailewen]

Don't trip over the syntactical ambiguity of what he wrote there dude.

[Bodywork]

I see
I was talkng about using whole body power and not flexing, any one thing -such as muscles in isolation. Read in context, it doesn't contradict what I stated above about power lifting in cycles- limited through the year (for me in a very proscribed sense)- and going back to strict training for softness. They do not contradict Chris. Not by intent or "planned" ambiguity. Isolated training of any kind is a mistake IMO.

[Chris Fleming]

If that is what you are now saying then fine. However, I did not take what you said out of context. And I don't see how "Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!" is really only about isolation.

[Ian]

The way the original question was formulated hinted to me that the exercises Ian mentioned were "external", and the "I don't do IMA" part of his follow-up post suggested that my suspicions weren't entirely unfounded.

Broseph, I don't do internal as you guys define it.

[Bodywork]

If that is what you are now saying then fine. However, I did not take what you said out of context. And I don't see how "Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!" is really only about isolation.

It's not what " I am saying now." It's what I was saying -then too.
You just took the "it" I was discussing out of context, that's all.

[Chris Fleming]

If that is what you are now saying then fine. However, I did not take what you said out of context. And I don't see how "Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!" is really only about isolation.

It's not what " I am saying now." It's what I was saying -then too.
You just took the "it" I was discussing out of context, that's all.

Sorry, no. I read the previous post where you said that quote to make sure, as best as I could, that I was not taking what you said out of context. Really, I'm the last person who wants to misrepresent you. But, like you said, flexing doesn't have anything to do with it. That's more than just isolation.

[DeusTrismegistus]

If that is what you are now saying then fine. However, I did not take what you said out of context. And I don't see how "Flexing and muscle building doesn't have a freaking thing to do with it. Its not muscle building, its muscle preventing!!" is really only about isolation.

It's not what " I am saying now." It's what I was saying -then too.
You just took the "it" I was discussing out of context, that's all.

Sorry, no. I read the previous post where you said that quote to make sure, as best as I could, that I was not taking what you said out of context. Really, I'm the last person who wants to misrepresent you. But, like you said, flexing doesn't have anything to do with it. That's more than just isolation.

Flexing does get in the way of a lot of things. If you try to put yourself in a horse stance and flex to resist being pushed over you are going to get pushed over, but if you keep yourself relaxed and aligned properly the force goes right into the floor. Of course the muscles are engaged to hold your alignment but they are not engaged in resisting the force.

[Chris Fleming]

Up to a certain point this is true. In horse, you are strong if pushed from the side, weaker if pushed from the front. All the alignement in the world will not help you if there is more force coming at you than your alignment can withstand.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Up to a certain point this is true. In horse, you are strong if pushed from the side, weaker if pushed from the front. All the alignement in the world will not help you if there is more force coming at you than your alignment can withstand.

If there is more force than your alignment can stand your muscles would have never had a chance

[Chris Fleming]

Agreed. Fully. I just don't see how people can honestly separate the idea of having muscles and having the body in alignment. What then are you putting in alignment? It is one thing to not tense up and overflex. If we all of a sudden have alignment without muscles and bones to put into alignment, then that is a very strange concept indeed. But back to that first thought, that is why we train in martial arts--hopefully learning ways to avoid taking things head on in the first place.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Agreed. Fully. I just don't see how people can honestly separate the idea of having muscles and having the body in alignment. What then are you putting in alignment? It is one thing to not tense up and overflex. If we all of a sudden have alignment without muscles and bones to put into alignment, then that is a very strange concept indeed. But back to that first thought, that is why we train in martial arts--hopefully learning ways to avoid taking things head on in the first place.

I haven't heard anyone say that bone shouldn't be used. Actually that is what my teacher says should be used. When the bones are in alignment the muscles can hang relaxed from the frame. When you strike or block the strength comes from the bone alignment and not muscular strength, its one of the many things that makes internal arts internal.

[Ian]

one of the BEST martial artists I've met lefts hella weights.

I don't care what other people do, but I like to try everything and see what works for myself.

[ashe]

well this has spiraled into the same old BTDT...

so off with you.

just a suggestion; if you don't like to train with weights, it's all good, but maybe you shouldn't contribute to a thread where there is a specific question by someone who's already dedicated to the practice and we can stay on topic.

it would be no different than if someone posted a question about southern mantis and half of everyone replied the SPM was no good and they should only do taiji.

[Dmitri]

Well, like I said it was in the main forum (i.e. IMA-related) and so I stated my opinion re. its lack of relation to IMA... Just an opinion, I don't care who practices what. If it were posted in OTT, I would have never mentioned anything like that.