What is IMA sparring supposed to look like?

[DeusTrismegistus]

I was just reading another thread and imagining challenging Chen Xiaowang to a fight. However, I like striking, and wrestling with a Chen master might not be a great idea. So my strategy would be to punch him in the face. Now regardless of outcome, what would you expect to see in the exchange so you wouldn't just call the striking external?

I know this might be BTDT but I am honestly curious what others think since I am not certain of my own answer.

[cerebus]

If you are punching, you should be completely relaxed and the strike should be rooted in the feet, transferred by the legs, powered by the hips and finally expressed through the hand. Will that be visually obvious to the observers? Maybe, maybe not. But it should be FELT by the person delivering the blow. Ideally the person receiving the blow would feel nothing... except a bad headache when they wake up after the fight is over...

[Wanderingdragon]

If Chen is a master, I would expect for your strike to land on thin air, leaving you off balance and vulnerable to his choice of counter. For your strike to not be seen as merely an external attempt to hit, you will not be off balance and his choice of counter will find you able to easily step into your own response.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

So far, I don't see anything that separates internal from external. Any good "external" practitioner will achieve the same things listed above.

[Wanderingdragon]

Really not the what was asked though, What would you,Ian, expect to see so youwouldn't just call it external

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Fair enough. The real trick is: I don't think you can see it. Perhaps you can see something that is clearly not internal, but I think you need to feel something to know if it is really internal. I would also like to point out that I am using internal to mean something along the lines of what Interloper would define it as. That is not how I was originally taught to think of internal, but that is another topic all together.

Watching sparring is a whole other can of worms for many reasons. It will almost never show true ability, unless the heat is turned up to high.

[Wanderingdragon]

Internal fighting looks like fighting, if you know internal you can see internal, it's different than throwing hands.

[Walk the Torque]

I think the mindsets of various arts would influence the look of a sparring session.

I think Hsing Yi would look quite different to Tai Chi for that reason alone.

[Ian]

lt'd really depend on the style and how the individual choses to move. You can get a reasonable idea by comparing sam chin with the xinyidao guys with ark.

[johnwang]

I think Hsing Yi would look quite different to Tai Chi for that reason alone.

One XingYi master said, "If I can't knock you down by my 1st Beng Chuan, and I need to use my 2nd Beng Chuan to knock you down, you should be proud of yourself".

the XingYi master 薛颠(Xue Dian) once gave a demonstration. He stood on oneside of the bench. Suddently he was on the other side of that bench. Nobody could even tell how did he move under that bench so fast. Some people in the audience had intention to challenge him (Xue had announced that he would accpet all public challenge). They all changed their mind after that demo. How can you fight someone who can move as fast as ghost?

In the ancient time, most of the TCMA masters didn't have to fight. The moment that their arm made contact, one guy will say, "You are late". The other guy then would say, "You are right. I'm late". The fight would stop righ at that moment. When a Chinese said, "You are late", that means "You will lose."

[GrahamB]

Fighting looks like..... Fighting. This still appears to be a surprise to many ima students

Anyway- based entirely on what I've seen on YouTube, two things can happen if you punch a famous Chinese teacher in the face:

1) they will pretend it's not happening and block with their face until their students dive in and break it up.

2) both people will clinch then fall to the ground in a non-conclusive heap.

[Ian]

Cool story. Makes you wonder whether you can get to a high level in cmas without a base level of athleticism. It's a pity that most cma practitioners now are completely incapable of reproducing these feats.

[johnwang]

I think old TCMA masters had spent a lot of training time in their footwork and speed training. It's like a monkey pokes on a wasp nests. The monkey will poke a hole in that wasp nests in lighting speed. The monkey then run away with lighting speed. Fighting will need to be that kind of speed with alert.

Sometime we mis-understand the Taiji principle, "If you don't move, I won't move. If you move, I ...". You just don't wait for your opponent to move. You will need to sense that your opponent has "intention" to move. The moment that you can sense his intention, you attack. The key is you will need to have excellent judgement about your opponent's "intention" (how and where he is going to move). You then enter that "leak" that he is going to create but hasn't created it yet. The moment that your body has moved into your opponent, the moment that your opponent will expose his "leak" for you. That's "lighting speed". I believe any good TCMA master should all fight like this.

[Tesshu]

I think old TCMA masters had spent a lot of training time in their footwork and speed training. It's like a monkey pokes on a wasp nests. The monkey will poke a hole in that wasp nests in lighting speed. The monkey then run away with lighting speed. Fighting will need to be that kind of speed with alert.

Sometime we mis-understand the Taiji principle, "If you don't move, I won't move. If you move, I ...". You just don't wait for your opponent to move. You will need to sense that your opponent has "intention" to move. The moment that you can sense his intention, you attack. The key is you will need to have excellent judgement about your opponent's "intention" (how and where he is going to move). You then enter that "leak" that he is going to create but hasn't created it yet. The moment that your body has moved into your opponent, the moment that your opponent will expose his "leak" for you. That's "lighting speed". I believe any good TCMA master should all fight like this.

Thanks!

[Strange]

what jw said.

the opening or opportunity presents itself at the beginning (intend.going to strike) and end (eg end of kick or punch, regardless if doing combo or not). some may say striking at the beginning is better, but i try to use both. those that prefer to strike at the beginning of an opponent's attack have their reason: they want to deny the opponent any sort of momentum. so... something like the stronger the opponent, the fiercer you have to become, if the tiger strikes, you are too late already. cheers