the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

There is quite a lot of footage

Wanderingdragon wrote:There is quite a lot of footage

Link?

Let me give it another go.

When I met Mike laoshi, he was very strict with that during partner training (applications and so on), the attacker always had to commit to the attack. Even if you trained slow motion, the attack had to be realistick in the sense that you followed the punch all the way through, with intent. (Not pulling or stopping the punch two inches from the face, etc.) If you pushed, you had to really push. Mike would check this, and in no uncertain terms let you know if you didn't commit.

You can see it in these clips of Mike. He sometimes stops and just lets the partner push him etc, to check that he is really pushing.
Look at the clip above. Already at the beginning, he first demonstrates how they push - then they do a drill where they push and roll back alternatively. They then commit to the push. (If you don't commit, the excercise is pointless.) Then, when the partner pushes and the timing/force is correct, Mike leads/redirects the force.

That is basically what is going on in these clips. Different drills and excercises to lead, direct, redirect force, etc.

Liokult, you write that "... all that is really warranted from the stimulus is a slight adjustment of arm position and minor change in stance."

Sure. But first of all, you'd need to be at a level where you are able to change without being led or set up, etc. So if your partner is better than you he could still do these kinds of things. Like Wang Chieh does in the clip.
But you are missing the point a bit. If you adjust and change you would not be training what is intended with the excercises shown in the clip. Rather, you would be a step on the way to free push hands - or, basically, doing free push hands.

It's simple, really. Different ecxercises develop different skills. If you don't stick to the excercise, then you are doing something different entirely - and probably wont get the results you are looking for.

Of course, to be able to do this sort of leading and redirecting etc. more freely, you need to be of a much higher level than your partner - hence what you see in the clips of Wang Chieh. But even that is still training specific things. All real.

liokault wrote:

Wanderingdragon wrote:There is quite a lot of footage

Link?

Any one of your clips on your channel will demonstrate you structure lacking.

I fucking hate jumpy-jumpy push hands demos/videos. gives all of us IMAists a bad name. At this point, this thread is BTDT.
Make a new one and keep jumpy-jumpy fake-ass push hands videos off of it to keep it out of BTDT.

Wow.

Can I have dictatorial powers too, please?

To be able to dictate what is real and what is fake like that.

That would be cool!

But seriously - are people OK with the likes of Mike Martello and Wang Chieh being put down as fakes?

I actually like mike martello. And can only add:

all that is really warranted from the stimulus is a slight adjustment of arm position and minor change in stance

This is the (a) goal of good structure.

Wanderingdragon wrote:

liokault wrote:

Wanderingdragon wrote:There is quite a lot of footage

Link?

Any one of your clips on your channel will demonstrate you structure lacking.

Can you even point out which clips on my channel are of me? Also, fairly intensive full contact sparring is a bit different to PH.

paranoidandroid wrote:I actually like mike martello. And can only add:

all that is really warranted from the stimulus is a slight adjustment of arm position and minor change in stance

This is the (a) goal of good structure.

You say that like the ability to adjust ballance is unique to IMA. People, while not born with inate ballance, tend to start developing it from about 1.5 years old and tend to have it fully developed by 7 or 8. For example, my 4 year old girl, my PH is perfect against her. I send her flying and spinning almost every exchange. Its a fine sight to see.

Unique is the way of applying it, which - the more I practice it and hopefully understand it - has not that much to do with normal martial arts application (nothing esoteric, but just a non western intuitive practice) and I practice a system that is tighlty connected with the history of mma too. But I understand your position (as its very reasonable and was there too) and there is not much to discuss here, if you did not feel it. Otherwise we just will turn in circles.

<admin> this thread has degenerated into bickering about real and fake pushing hands, as well as defaming of masters, late and living. BTDT. </admin>

<me> They may have actual skills--some of wang chieh's techniques he used against martello in the demo were not fake. However, many of them were, and that shit pisses me off. Many of the techniques shown by martello were fake as hell. I've never seen or experienced an actual push hands match that looks anything like that in the states or in taiwan. My taichi teacher in taiwan is very very good, and he has never made me jump around like the people in those videos. You won't see any demos of Sam Chin that look like that, and you won't see any demos of dan docherty that look like that. </me>

Sam Chin with our own Ashe Higgs, starting around 1:42

no jumpy jumpy fake shit.

Dan Docherty's students at 1:50

again, no jumpy jumpy fake shit.

Vincent Chu, super bad jumpy jumpy fake shit:

Just to be sure, I meant stuff like this (but I still like most stuff of mike martello)

liokault wrote:You say that like the ability to adjust ballance is unique to IMA. People, while not born with inate ballance,

Ball Ance? As in Ants on your Balls?

Ouch!!



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D_Glenn wrote:

liokault wrote:You say that like the ability to adjust ballance is unique to IMA. People, while not born with inate ballance,

Ball Ance? As in Ants on your Balls?

Ouch!!



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Spelling is soooo 2011