final resting place for obnoxious and/or disruptiv OTT posts

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby junglist on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:49 am

Liokault, how was the seminar with Dan?
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby liokault on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:48 am

junglist wrote:Liokault, how was the seminar with Dan?



He backed out. "Legal" reasons I think he used to do so (it was all deleted when Tom cleaned the thread up). Disappointing weekend over all, the full contact at the British Open was cancelled as well.


(I get a feeling this thread is now heading for derailment again, as I got enough flak for the previous derail of this thread, anyone who would like to comment on my statement should probably start another thread)


(Edit to add, I assume you were referring to Dan challenging me, not my attendance at his seminar, which I never stated I was going to or have any interest in)
Last edited by liokault on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby junglist on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:26 am

That's too bad dude. I was hoping you would find out the truth about Dan, or you would educate Dan on the truth you believe about his skills.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby Bodywork on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:38 am

liokault wrote:
junglist wrote:Liokault, how was the seminar with Dan?

He backed out. "Legal" reasons I think he used to do so (it was all deleted when Tom cleaned the thread up). Disappointing weekend over all, the full contact at the British Open was cancelled as well.
(I get a feeling this thread is now heading for derailment again, as I got enough flak for the previous derail of this thread, anyone who would like to comment on my statement should probably start another thread)
(Edit to add, I assume you were referring to Dan challenging me, not my attendance at his seminar, which I never stated I was going to or have any interest in)

If you are going to troll, at least be accurate.
Without knowing me, and in direct contradiction to others who told you that you were way off base and in over your head on this one (including those who know us both).....you...called me a fraud and what I teach as ineffective. Since there is no credible reason to have done so, you were labeled a troll, or just plain stupid, on the spot.
The results:
The result was never me challenging you. I made my intentions of what I was going to do to you quite clear. I wanted your real name and address for a legal release from Hospital bills and arrest. It was you...not me ...who refused.

Incidentally, while I was there I heard of three guys arrested for fights, and one...was only trying to break it up and got arrested anyway. My instincts were correct. I don't want to be a foreign national, arrested on Brittish soil.

It is clear that you have no interest in the truth, or any interest in learning anything at all, you just want to go in without any idea of what you are facing and that your mouth is cashing checks your ass can't cover, and get it handed to you like a stupid drunk on Saturday night. And for what? We don't know. No reasonable man here has been able to figure that out!
Dan
P.S. By the way...now that you are acting like a high school kid quoting me as your tag line...(good grief man, get a grip) Pictures of that incident -with me choking him out and hammering him, but intenionally not hurting him, (with 30 or so people present) is on the web.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby I am... on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:46 am

Liokault,

If you really wanted to know what Dan/Bodywork can do, you should have shown up, even if just to talk in person and maybe feel or see a demo. Why write about doubting a persons skills publicly and then not bother to validate your beliefs? That doesn't make sense in my book, but I guess to each their own.

Just to be clear, Dan isn't my teacher, and I have only met him once, his skill and teaching methods are high quality.
Last edited by I am... on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby liokault on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:51 am

Bodywork wrote: The result was never me challenging you. I made my intentions of what I was going to do to you quite clear. I wanted your real name and address for a legal release from Hospital bills and arrest. It was you...not me ...who refused.


I disagree with you, you challenged me to meet you. You tell me that you will come to me and give me a date range that you will be near me. I agree and nominate a convenient date for both of us.
You then go on to make unreasonable and irrelevant requests, which I do not agree to (I see no need to give a home address to anyone on the internet and anyone who does is crazy) and having my home address in no way gives any sort of legality to anything.
At this point YOU post unilaterally that it’s off. Perhaps you should start a thread on the etiquette of challenges to discuss this in more detail.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby liokault on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:05 am

I am... wrote:Liokault,

If you really wanted to know what Dan/Bodywork can do, you should have shown up, even if just to talk in person and maybe feel or see a demo. Why write about doubting a persons skills publicly and then not bother to validate your beliefs? That doesn't make sense in my book, but I guess to each their own.

Just to be clear, Dan isn't my teacher, and I have only met him once, his skill and teaching methods are high quality.


Re: If you really wanted to know what Dan/Bodywork can do, you should have shown up

I'm not that interested in "Dan" to be honest. I have an interest in people who can teach "demonstrably unusual internal strength and fighting skills to other men? Not one or the other-both", but I don't think Dan can.Since the origional challange by Dan to me, I have had loads of conversations with people who have been to his seminars.They are all similar in variouse ways:

1/ They all agree that Dan is a very good fighter.
2/ They can't do what Dan does after having been trained by him (apart from one guy who wouldn’t be drawn on it either way).
3/ They are unsure that what makes Dan a good fighter is something that can be taught.

I met a guy on Sunday from this forum who had been to one of Dan's seminars. His verdict was that Dan isn't all that, but is very big.

By all means, as someone who has trained with Dan, are you proof of number 4 from the OP?

4. Who here has taught and given demonstrably unusual internal strength and fighting skills to other men? Not one or the other-both?

Has Dan given you demonstrably unusual internal strength and fighting skill? If not then I guess I'll just fall back to my original position that Dan created this thread to sell seminar space (and now to pre sell books).



Re: Why write about doubting a persons skills publicly and then not bother to validate your beliefs?

I was fully up for meeting Dan. Dan backed out for excuses to be posted below. I was not invited to nor did I ask to attend a seminar. Dan in his original post to me stated that he would come to me. I accepted, he didn’t come.
Last edited by liokault on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who here, has notably "unusual power" and can fight with it?

Postby Bodywork on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:43 pm

More incomprehensible babble and trolling.
You- don't think I can teach both fighting skills and IP based on..... nothing.
You are unqualified person, with an unqualified opinion based on little information.

1. Hundreds.....yes hundreds of people have met very capable guys I created
2. You cite a single guy to support a position you are guessing at....and that position has been countered by everyone else here who has trained with me.
3. What you are looking for (me teaching fighting techniques) is not what I am doing at these particular seminars, nor is it what people want.
4. What I am teaching, is meant to gain IP. If you knew what it takes to gain IP you would understand the training, but it is obvious that you simply are out of your element, hence your floundering.

I'm done
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:07 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:Put all this together and you have most of my Sculptor method, the approach I developed and have been refining over the last 20 some odd years which has been the secret to why I have been able to so consistently produce results which are dramatically better than most every other method out there against which it has competed, including all of what is usually called traditional training in the internal arts. This that I have been outlining in this thread so far is the engine of my method, and it's the first time I've made it this public before. I hope some of you will be curious enough to try it and see what unusual results you, too, might obtain.

I'd love to see a few good still photos of your perfected form postures developed from the Sculptor method,. After all, a picture is worth a thousand words, since the camera doesn't lie. And of course, I'd love to see any videos of your perfected movement developed from your training method as well. Sounds very cool! 8-)

However, your extraordinary claims of a proprietary training method, which produces "unusual results" that are better than "all of what is usually called traditional training in the internal arts", sounds to me alot like what you criticized Harden for saying about his training methods. But his claims can't possibly be true, because there can be only ONE best method, and that one would be yours, right? :-\

A logical resolution to this problem would simply be for you to do a full-contact fight with Dan, post the video thereafter for all to see, thus allowing the results to be self-evident to us all as to which training method is superior. -bow-
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Chris McKinley on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:10 pm

You know, Doc, that's a fair criticism....I suppose the way I wrote that does come across as arrogant. And for that, I apologize. However, from the impression I have of you, I wouldn't hesitate to make the same brag about your own methods in comparison to what is commonly (and erroneously, as we both have expressed numerous times) called "traditional" training in the IMA these days. It's not exactly a hugely spectacular claim to be able to outperform what the neijia typically produces in terms of functional fighting ability. I also noticed that in vividly stark contrast to Dan and, I can't help noticing, to yourself as well, I have openly shared lots of my specific information. I have done so voluntarily, too, before anyone 'called me out' to provide it. In fact, I've been doing that for quite a few years now.

While I'm quite confident in my record of producing functional results, I generally prefer to let my points stand on strength of argument alone whenever possible. It seems clear to me you're not interested in any of the methods I've been discussing on this thread, and that's fine. However, I've at least shared my methods, which is not something you can truly say in kind, despite your tired sarcasm. I'm wondering how that doesn't strike you as just the least little bit hypocritical. Of course, you could remedy that by actually contributing something substantive of value to the thread, regardless of what you might think of me or my methods. Or you could choose not to and simply take pot shots at me from the peanut gallery. Whatever works for you, man.
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Chris. Fair enough, but unlike you, I've never publicly made such claims for the Shen Men Tao System I train and teach. My observations and comments on this thread were not about me, remember? They were totally about the extraordinary claims of superlative results that you make for your Sculptor Method.

I tend to believe that you make these claims feeling that you are actually being quite modest, and maybe you're right. Perhaps your training methods really are that good.

Nonetheless, as you have stated many times previously on this forum, extraordinary claims demand irrefutable validation, right? Hence, my previous post exhorting you to provide exactly that in order to prove your often repeated points, and to finally silence any would-be critics and naysayers once and for all. Just sayin'! -shrug-
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Chris McKinley on Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:26 pm

Doc,

I have made an extraordinary claim of superlative results with my method, no doubt about it. And not just once or twice, but consistently, over many years of application of it. I have also conveniently put it out there for anyone who cares to try it to ignore my claims and go and try it for themselves. Now, it's not 100% of the method, and what I've posted certainly doesn't include having me there in person to offer additional skills and guidance that I have in my repertoire, to be certain, but I will claim this.....anyone who accurately, systematically and consistently applies just what I have written in this thread plus the corollary information for it that I provided in Shooter's What Are You Gonna Do About It? thread will dramatically outperform the typical results found in all modern examples of traditional IMA, regardless of style, in the production of functional fighting ability with their art. It's out there now. Cut out the middle man and test it for yourselves. I wouldn't do that if I were interested exclusively in cashing in on my hard-earned expertise, or if I were only interested in maintaining a "special" status that allows me to brag without sharing. Nothing would make me happier than for people to take the work I've set down and to make my results "un-special" by duplicating or even surpassing them.

Now that it's out there, I can't put that particular genie back in the bottle, nor do I care to. It gives me pleasure to share what I have learned with others who share my same pursuit. And btw, you still haven't contributed anything relevant or of constructive value yet, nor have you apparently realized the hypocrisy of your continued sarcasm in the face of the fact that I, in contrast, have shared something of very dear value to me with my fellow board members, and in some significant detail.
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Chris McKinley on Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:55 pm

You are lying yet again, Mr. Stier. You have been tasked with providing even a single example of my claiming to have superior skills to any particular individual on this board. Repeating the lie does not make it true, though it may occasionally help it "catch on" in the public discourse. I have claimed that my method produces superlative results. I stand by that claim, but better than that, I have removed myself from the equation by providing it, completely free of charge, to my fellow posters on this forum so that they may test it out for themselves and make their own qualitative evaluations of it. I have made no claim that would require nor even be satisfied by either still photographs or video. I have demanded no such "standard of proof" from any particular individual on this forum, making your claim to that effect yet another flat lie. I have asked for even simple descriptions from certain individuals, and even the most hasty and superficial perusal of my own posting output on this forum will demonstrate a signal-to-noise ratio that will bear comparison with that of anyone who has ever posted on this forum in its history. It inarguably and completely eclipses your own, it is worth noting. Also of note is that you have posted yet again, and yet again have chosen not to contribute anything of any value whatsoever to the discussion of the topic of the thread.

The part of your criticism which was valid has already been acknowledged and apologized for, whether you choose to accept it or not. The comments you have made afterward are purely and simply lies. That makes you a liar, Mr. Stier. Even were I obligated to do so, I would not be inclined to provide anything at all to someone who has lied about me repeatedly. If you are dissatisfied with my output and what I have chosen to share on this thread, take it up with the moderators and let them decide. I will happily trust their judgment of whether it constitutes a valid contribution to the thread or not. As a separate point, you may also choose to actually contribute yourself. Again, your choice.
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Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby Chris McKinley on Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:30 am

I-mon,

I very much appreciate your attempts to bring some peace and civility back into play. I have directly asked this individual for such myself on numerous occasions. However, you are drawing a false equivalence between our respective behaviors where none exists. I have provided a fairly large amount of extremely on-topic and very valuable information to my fellow posters in this thread and I have invited Doc Stier to do the same, an invitation which has thus far been refused at the expense of more time spent criticizing me. I have initiated no disruption of this thread, in fact, I have done quite the opposite. You are also appealing to an expression of the value of compassion that, at least in my case, I simply do not share. Let me explain what I mean. I'm all for compassion in and of itself. It's part of the whole 'live and let live' thing, as well as the Golden Rule, etc. But where I'm from compassion is inappropriate where you have someone who is actively, repeatedly and intentionally lying about someone, especially with the intent to impune their character. If a man lies about you with the intention to harm you, your reputation or your relationships, that man takes a fairly large risk with his own reputation, and depending on the person and the situation, with his own well-being. This isn't a situation of a person causing harm by acting out of ignorance or momentary emotional weakness. It's also not a situation in which someone is asking for forgiveness after acknowledging a wrong. Both of those are situations where compassion is appropriate within my value system.

However, with respect to this particular individual, he has repeated this pattern of dishonestly accusing me of claims I have not made for many months on this forum on numerous threads to the point where his behavior can only be called trolling. Each time, my response has been to a) ask that he provide even a single quote of mine which would corroborate his accusation, and b) ask that he please return to discussing the actual topic in a civil manner instead. The response has always been the same....to completely ignore both requests and to continue to generate even more lies. To make the matter even more bizarre, in between such attacks, he has also sent me PM's essentially attempting to address me as if we were friends, complimenting me, and acting genuinely nice. But it's all an act. You don't claim to want to be on friendly terms with someone in private then consistently attempt to disparage and discredit them in public. That's what we colloquially call being a good old-fashioned snake in the grass. Such an individual deserves absolutely no compassion whatsoever so long as they remain devoid of goodwill and are actively continuing in their harmful behavior. At this point, it is an act of compassion on my part even to extend to this particular individual the privileges of basic civility and courtesy. Now, if that person has a change of heart and just as publicly acknowledges their offense and asks for forgiveness, their treatment should and will change appropriately, and compassion will once again be appropriate to apply. But unless and until they stop actively maintaining the ill-intentioned behavior, it is not.

Until then, I am also still waiting to see even one tiny tidbit of actual on-topic contribution from him. After causing this much disruption of the thread's discussion, I don't think it would be unfair or inappropriate to expect.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Absolutely essential knowledge

Postby affa on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:01 am

16, 76, 81, 88, 93
21, 28, 38, 52, 78
7, 40, 56, 73, 87
23, 65, 82, 91, 95
2, 6, 10, 46, 95
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