YOU'RE WELCOME

[Michael]

Well, fair enough, there's always some back and forth. I don't want to put anyone on the defensive on this BTDT thread, just giving some feedback. Anyway, it gave me an idea for a thread.

[Bodywork]

Michael,
It's fine to blame everything on the ignorant masses, but if a person has contentious interactions over a period of years on every internet forum they post on, then maybe it's time to start looking at what the commonality is.

Personally, I don't need to be told all about my lack of understanding by someone who, based on their persistent misuse of terminology, more likely than not doesn't have the background to understand what it is I'm saying and is too arrogant to bother asking for clarification, or even realize that they don't understand to begin with.

As one who has had contentious interactions over multiple Japanese forums for years, I can state emphatically that those interactions have resulted in friendships among the highest ranked Japanese budoka and with over a 1,100 teachers training under me. Why? Because I was right then and I am right now.
1. Why is that not mentioned?
2. Why is the result of the contention not included?
3. The results are turning the practice of JMA on its ear and bringing together Shihan, from different arts, together on mats with teachers of ICMA, along with BJJ and MMA and FMA practitioners all in one room. As one JMA expert told me in an open room.
"I don't think this has ever happened before."
4. Those teachers are now...te world over, teachig their students.
All from awareness mentioned on forums....which brought about contention.
And last
Were you to go to those forums now...the "contention" is all but gone. Why? The teachers and students got a better education.

So, while I recognize telling groups of practitioners "They don't get it"...is contentious at times, I will not let it slide that it is all negative. That...would be a lie. Many teachers have told me this was the greatest thing to ever happen to them in their careers.
Truth often is contentious, particularly when you tell an audience of budo practitioners involved with aiki and internal power that they don't get it and many of their teachers didn't get it either...then, you cross hands with them. And that is the critical point. In person, all the bullshit, and defensive knee-jerk, smart-ass insults...vanish, because you need to produce. At that point, miraculously, friendships are formed.

I have seen the same here as on the Japanese boards. It is abundantly clear that many people here do not know what IP is, how to develop it, and what the positive aspects of training it is in practical fighting. It is inescapably obvious in their writing and it continues to be evident in person as well. As in the case of the Japanese arts, my interactions with master class Chinese ICMA teachers has only served to strengthen my resolve as to where the lower level people stand in comparison.

While it is easy to cast a negative light on criticism and critique, the bullshit and posturing doesn't survive crossing hands. I think many MA practitioners want a pat on the back, and mutual validation for years of work that has never produced the results they claim to possess and they just get pissed off for being called on it. On my end, over almost 16 years on forums- virtually none of the top Japanese practitioners have passed muster in one-on-one encounters and many of them have now become students. I remain interested in seeing if the ICMA community can produce, men with power who can actually use it. So far I see men who are either good fighters -with shit for IP (they feel like any other wrestler), or they have some connection but can't fight for shit. And only....some...of the master class guys I have felt were impressive. One of whom virtually bounced...himself...off of me in an open room.

I think the greatest thing that can happen in any community is to be challenged. Tom got pissed off and said much the same thing as Bhassler did here. In his words "We don't need some knight in lacquered armor coming to save the ICMA."
a. it was a false accusation as I am not trying to save the ICMA.
b. this is the second time I have had to remind Tom that there are a series of posts of mine here with me stating that I think the ICMA are among the highest level arts on earth.
c. What I was doing was pointing out the obvious, that there was an incredible number of folks coming here on a reguar basis to slam IP and its very practical use in combatives. And others who write in here on a regular basis who do not get IP and that they...like their Japanese counterparts would not withstand testing in that regard.

THAT is why I encouraged the formation of a separate internal forum, to try to get discussions going in the right direction. Hopefully, in time it draws the type of discussions that took place here years ago, instead of the forums turning into a grappler’s board. So far it really hasn't produced anything meaningful for training tips and actual internal work, but it is headed in the right direction, in fact the whole board seems to have undeniably switched to internal related discussions. Only time will tell.
Dan

[Tom]

I encouraged the formation of a separate internal forum, to try to get discussions going in the right direction. Hopefully, in time it draws the type of discussions that took place here years ago, instead of the forums turning into a grappler’s board. So far it really hasn't produced anything meaningful for training tips and actual internal work, but it is headed in the right direction, in fact the whole board seems to have undeniably switched to internal related discussions. Only time will tell.
Dan

So how about some training tips and specific exercises for actual internal work? Because you are correct, Dan--the Distillery has not yet produced much of that kind of material in the six weeks it's been around. Nor, for that matter, have you yourself posted anything like that in the nearly four years that you've been posting at RSF.

"I think the greatest thing that can happen in any community is to be challenged." Well, individuals also grow by being challenged. So I challenge you to describe one basic exercise that you teach at your seminars that works to produce the internal skill and power that you yourself are capable of--as I know from first-hand experience. Why not describe shiko? It would be great to have a photo sequence or a video clip, but I'm not even asking you for that. Just describe how to do shiko--or any other one of the multitude of exercises you teach--and what diligent and correct practice of that exercise will bring.

I could describe the exercise, and the benefits that practice has brought to me, in a fairly specific way. I could also illustrate it. But I'm a relative nobody, and people would enjoy and would learn from hearing, directly from you, a description of some of the specific "training tips and actual internal work" that you refer to.

There is no credible reason I can think of not to. This isn't a case of giving away secrets--it's one basic exercise. It's not fair to ask others to post "training tips and actual internal work," and not be willing to do the same yourself.

[Finny]

I encouraged the formation of a separate internal forum, to try to get discussions going in the right direction. Hopefully, in time it draws the type of discussions that took place here years ago, instead of the forums turning into a grappler’s board. So far it really hasn't produced anything meaningful for training tips and actual internal work, but it is headed in the right direction, in fact the whole board seems to have undeniably switched to internal related discussions. Only time will tell.
Dan

So how about some training tips and specific exercises for actual internal work? Because you are correct, Dan--the Distillery has not yet produced much of that kind of material in the six weeks it's been around. Nor, for that matter, have you yourself posted anything like that in the nearly four years that you've been posting at RSF.

"I think the greatest thing that can happen in any community is to be challenged." Well, individuals also grow by being challenged. So I challenge you to describe one basic exercise that you teach at your seminars that works to produce the internal skill and power that you yourself are capable of--as I know from first-hand experience. Why not describe shiko? It would be great to have a photo sequence or a video clip, but I'm not even asking you for that. Just describe how to do shiko--or any other one of the multitude of exercises you teach--and what diligent and correct practice of that exercise will bring.

I could describe the exercise, and the benefits that practice has brought to me, in a fairly specific way. I could also illustrate it. But I'm a relative nobody, and people would enjoy and would learn from hearing, directly from you, a description of some of the specific "training tips and actual internal work" that you refer to.

There is no credible reason I can think of not to. This isn't a case of giving away secrets--it's one basic exercise. It's not fair to ask others to post "training tips and actual internal work," and not be willing to do the same yourself.

Thank you Tom - articulated my feelings on the topic more eloquently than i ever could.

I would happily concede that I can do none of the things Dan mentioned in the other thread (not sure I'd ever be able to develop the ability to either, being somewhat 'handicapable' now...) - but I'd love to learn more about Dan's method and solo work. Unfortunately I just can't afford the 10k+ it would cost me (not to mention the time) to get to the states or europe to attend one of his seminars. But who knows, maybe someday..

[Chris McKinley]

Thank you, Tom, for that call for honesty and fairness.

[Daniel]

I encouraged the formation of a separate internal forum, to try to get discussions going in the right direction. Hopefully, in time it draws the type of discussions that took place here years ago, instead of the forums turning into a grappler’s board. So far it really hasn't produced anything meaningful for training tips and actual internal work, but it is headed in the right direction, in fact the whole board seems to have undeniably switched to internal related discussions. Only time will tell.
Dan

So how about some training tips and specific exercises for actual internal work? Because you are correct, Dan--the Distillery has not yet produced much of that kind of material in the six weeks it's been around. Nor, for that matter, have you yourself posted anything like that in the nearly four years that you've been posting at RSF.

"I think the greatest thing that can happen in any community is to be challenged." Well, individuals also grow by being challenged. So I challenge you to describe one basic exercise that you teach at your seminars that works to produce the internal skill and power that you yourself are capable of--as I know from first-hand experience. Why not describe shiko? It would be great to have a photo sequence or a video clip, but I'm not even asking you for that. Just describe how to do shiko--or any other one of the multitude of exercises you teach--and what diligent and correct practice of that exercise will bring.

I could describe the exercise, and the benefits that practice has brought to me, in a fairly specific way. I could also illustrate it. But I'm a relative nobody, and people would enjoy and would learn from hearing, directly from you, a description of some of the specific "training tips and actual internal work" that you refer to.

There is no credible reason I can think of not to. This isn't a case of giving away secrets--it's one basic exercise. It's not fair to ask others to post "training tips and actual internal work," and not be willing to do the same yourself.

Very good post, Tom.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Buddy]

Wow, it's like I never left.

[Finny]

Wow, it's like I never left.

Who are you?



hahaha no it's true - classic eF

How's the hip going Buddy? Training yet?

[Buddy]

Nah, I have to get the other one replaced soon. Osteoarthritis sucks. I've been focusing on my online businesses. I'm only interested in the healing stuff now anyways. Alright, still interested in the fighting stuff but just don't care about it anymore. Buy a gun.

[nianfong]

I encouraged the formation of a separate internal forum, to try to get discussions going in the right direction. Hopefully, in time it draws the type of discussions that took place here years ago, instead of the forums turning into a grappler’s board. So far it really hasn't produced anything meaningful for training tips and actual internal work, but it is headed in the right direction, in fact the whole board seems to have undeniably switched to internal related discussions. Only time will tell.
Dan

So how about some training tips and specific exercises for actual internal work? Because you are correct, Dan--the Distillery has not yet produced much of that kind of material in the six weeks it's been around. Nor, for that matter, have you yourself posted anything like that in the nearly four years that you've been posting at RSF.

"I think the greatest thing that can happen in any community is to be challenged." Well, individuals also grow by being challenged. So I challenge you to describe one basic exercise that you teach at your seminars that works to produce the internal skill and power that you yourself are capable of--as I know from first-hand experience. Why not describe shiko? It would be great to have a photo sequence or a video clip, but I'm not even asking you for that. Just describe how to do shiko--or any other one of the multitude of exercises you teach--and what diligent and correct practice of that exercise will bring.

I could describe the exercise, and the benefits that practice has brought to me, in a fairly specific way. I could also illustrate it. But I'm a relative nobody, and people would enjoy and would learn from hearing, directly from you, a description of some of the specific "training tips and actual internal work" that you refer to.

There is no credible reason I can think of not to. This isn't a case of giving away secrets--it's one basic exercise. It's not fair to ask others to post "training tips and actual internal work," and not be willing to do the same yourself.

Bodywork, you still have not responded to Tom's challenge. So far I only really see a lot of bluster from you, but not much substance. No details about how or what to train, just boasting about your own internal power and how you can use it. From someone who has never met you in person, I see this as borderline trolling, because you get a rise out of people, but then don't follow it up. What is your response to this?

The other thing I should say is that I truly have considered a Great Old Ones only subforum for a long time--since we made RSF even. Only recently did it seem apropos to actually create it. But now that it exists, I still don't see any substantive posts from you in that subforum. We are all about sharing our knowledge here, and frankly I'm not seeing you share much knowledge. At least not anymore.

-Fong

[Bodywork]

Bodywork, you still have not responded to Tom's challenge. So far I only really see a lot of bluster from you, but not much substance. No details about how or what to train, just boasting about your own internal power and how you can use it. From someone who has never met you in person, I see this as borderline trolling, because you get a rise out of people, but then don't follow it up. What is your response to this?

The other thing I should say is that I truly have considered a Great Old Ones only subforum for a long time--since we made RSF even. Only recently did it seem apropos to actually create it. But now that it exists, I still don't see any substantive posts from you in that subforum. We are all about sharing our knowledge here, and frankly I'm not seeing you share much knowledge. At least not anymore.
-Fong[/quote]
As I told Tom
I am in the middle of a book and we are also considering Video. As it is a very serious endevour to me, I am taking time to get it right. Casual replies and debates over it seem counterproductive. I told Tom as things flesh out I will place some things here.
Note* after being hounded by Chris with any manner of accusations of wanting to take over or moderate....over the simple suggestion of the Internal forum (distillary) I would go him one better and not post there.
So, again, I am in the works of something definitive that I would consider both helpful and be willing to support, that will tie-in with teaching material.
Dan

[nianfong]

Dan,
the high road would be to ignore any of chris's remarks about things, and just post what you want to discuss on the distillery. Not posting there because of what Chris said 1) is childish, and 2) means you are being controlled by his statements.

I should note that this becomes especially childish when you post a thread called "YOU'RE WELCOME" taking credit for creation of the subforum, even though you don't even post there.

-Fong

[Bodywork]

Dan,
the high road would be to ignore any of chris's remarks about things, and just post what you want to discuss on the distillery. Not posting there because of what Chris said 1) is childish, and 2) means you are being controlled by his statements.

I should note that this becomes especially childish when you post a thread called "YOU'RE WELCOME" taking credit for creation of the subforum, even though you don't even post there.

-Fong

My goal in "You're welcome" was to address getting insulted so much for just suggesting the idea of the Distillary and for the simple fact that so many have now ackowledged and posted all over the place that they agreed! "The board has switched back to trying to talk about internals."
I can think of other terms beside childish that might be more accurate, but okay.

I am listening and considering. Tom and I are talking, and I will actively work on trying to get some material together when posting. Sorry for causing such a flap for you guys, as it was never a goal of mine to do so. That said, if you and Ashe want to ban me, no hard feelings.
Dan

[meeks]

Bodywork, you still have not responded to Tom's challenge. So far I only really see a lot of bluster from you, but not much substance. No details about how or what to train, just boasting about your own internal power and how you can use it. From someone who has never met you in person, I see this as borderline trolling, because you get a rise out of people, but then don't follow it up. What is your response to this?

The other thing I should say is that I truly have considered a Great Old Ones only subforum for a long time--since we made RSF even. Only recently did it seem apropos to actually create it. But now that it exists, I still don't see any substantive posts from you in that subforum. We are all about sharing our knowledge here, and frankly I'm not seeing you share much knowledge. At least not anymore.
-Fong

As I told Tom
I am in the middle of a book and we are also considering Video. As it is a very serious endevour to me, I am taking time to get it right. Casual replies and debates over it seem counterproductive. I told Tom as things flesh out I will place some things here.
Note* after being hounded by Chris with any manner of accusations of wanting to take over or moderate....over the simple suggestion of the Internal forum (distillary) I would go him one better and not post there.
So, again, I am in the works of something definitive that I would consider both helpful and be willing to support, that will tie-in with teaching material.
Dan

I would think that if you have the time to write a long detailed response trumpeting how you've redefined the world for many JMA guys (which I respect your efforts for) you should be able to find the time to put a couple of brief paragraphs detailing a few exercises... Suddenly a book you're writing takes all your time and effort when asked to put your money where your mouth is. People lose a lot of credibility with those patterns on forums. I'm hoping you'll be able to find the 10 minutes it takes to type one in, in a positive fashion, than taking that time to respond to guys simply asking you to put something up.