LIghtness skill and empty force

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Coiled_Spring on Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:10 am

Interloper,

Can you honestly tell me if you know how the world works in its every aspect? If you can't, how can you claim something to be possible or impossible or natural or unnatural? This is pure close mindedness. I majored in Physics and still have open eyes for more possibilities. Of course if everything in this world was explained there would be no more room for any research.

Can you explain how force acts on a particle in a force field without any object having any contact with it? Its just space out there, but if there is field, then you can see the effect. Actually, even that should be a mystery to you.
Coiled_Spring
Huajing
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: India

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Dmitri on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:50 am

Oh but that's very easy. He should just go ahead and accept this challenge and win a million bucks. Everyone wins, and there's no need to keep open mind or presume or believe...
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9736
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Peacedog on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:00 pm

The video cd of this gentleman is available at Plumb Publications online. If memory serves the video does show him walking the basket and it is damn impressive. The video also shows that he is not a small man, which makes it all the more impressive.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Peacedog on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:02 pm

Last edited by Peacedog on Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Interloper on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:52 pm

Dunno about you, but my world is based on natural laws, and Occam's Razor.

Coiled_Spring wrote:Interloper,

Can you honestly tell me if you know how the world works in its every aspect? If you can't, how can you claim something to be possible or impossible or natural or unnatural? This is pure close mindedness. I majored in Physics and still have open eyes for more possibilities. Of course if everything in this world was explained there would be no more room for any research.

Can you explain how force acts on a particle in a force field without any object having any contact with it? Its just space out there, but if there is field, then you can see the effect. Actually, even that should be a mystery to you.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Interloper on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:53 pm

Dmitri wrote:Oh but that's very easy. He should just go ahead and accept this challenge and win a million bucks. Everyone wins, and there's no need to keep open mind or presume or believe...


Yah. So far, no one seems to have been up to Randi's challenge, and the Amazin' One has been around for a looong time.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Ron Panunto on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:33 pm

Coiled_Spring wrote:Interloper,

Can you honestly tell me if you know how the world works in its every aspect? If you can't, how can you claim something to be possible or impossible or natural or unnatural? This is pure close mindedness. I majored in Physics and still have open eyes for more possibilities. Of course if everything in this world was explained there would be no more room for any research.

Can you explain how force acts on a particle in a force field without any object having any contact with it? Its just space out there, but if there is field, then you can see the effect. Actually, even that should be a mystery to you.


If you majored in physics then you know that there are only 4 forces: the strong nuclear, the weak nuclear, electro-magnetism and gravity. Are you trying to say that this elderly Chinese gentleman has discovered another one? If so, your nuts.
Ron Panunto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Langhorne, PA, USA

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Dmitri on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Well it could be argued that just some lousy couple hundred years ago people didn't know anything about 2.5 of these 4 forces... so there's a damn good chance there's stuff out there that we don't know anything about yet. Or the "explanation" might be that he learned how to interfere with/manipulate/control gravity. Or whatever. But "how" is not important IMO. "Keeping an open mind" is very different from "sticking to reproducible and observable events". I.e. if he can't reproduce that trick in a different setting (where someone else brings and puts the brick down, makes sure there are, literally, no strings attached to anything :), etc.), then it's pretty clear that he's not controlling gravity, but only the observer's senses. I.e. what any mediocre illusionist can do at least as well.
Last edited by Dmitri on Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9736
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby BaguaKicksAss on Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:41 pm

If folks can do slacklining with only a few months of training, why not basket walking with many years of training? Seems most of the amazing feats are a lot to do with many hours of training in one specific thing.

Also, talking about anything that goes beyond pure physical mundane "reality" on RSF is just silly.
User avatar
BaguaKicksAss
Wuji
 
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:23 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Dmitri on Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:33 pm

For the record, I'm talking about the brick thing, not the tub thing. The tub thing looks real and is actually not all THAT rare or super-impressive, although clearly requires good (awareness of) balance.

I also would like to point out that I pass no judgment on that person's skill or lack thereof -- I have absolutely no opinion of it; I can't have one, not from a couple little clips like that.

And another thing... it's always been weird to me how some folks with real tangible skills add these silly (IMO) "tricks" to their demos. They do their "real" skills a disservice IMHO. I guess it's some type of a "cultural thing" that I just don't understand. Setting newspaper on fire with their "qi", etc. :-/
Last edited by Dmitri on Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9736
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Interloper on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:54 pm

Dmitri wrote:Well it could be argued that just some lousy couple hundred years ago people didn't know anything about 2.5 of these 4 forces... so there's a damn good chance there's stuff out there that we don't know anything about yet. Or the "explanation" might be that he learned how to interfere with/manipulate/control gravity. Or whatever. But "how" is not important IMO. "Keeping an open mind" is very different from "sticking to reproducible and observable events". I.e. if he can't reproduce that trick in a different setting (where someone else brings and puts the brick down, makes sure there are, literally, no strings attached to anything :), etc.), then it's pretty clear that he's not controlling gravity, but only the observer's senses. I.e. what any mediocre illusionist can do at least as well.


If a human being (or other animal) is capable of emitting any kind of force beyond what we've already discovered -- through testing with reproducible results time after time -- I think that we'd pretty much be aware of it by now. And, more people (or other animals) would be demonstrating it, not just an esoteric handful of guys.

For example, there has been absolutely no indication that the human nervous system is able to emit detectible electrical/electromagnetic charges or fields. We simply have not evolved in that direction. OTOH, electric eels are very much able to produce and emit powerful electrical charges, and we can -- and have -- measured them, time and again, and found the organs within the eel's body that are the source.
Ditto for animals and plants with bioluminscence (the ability to emit light) -- naturalists-scientists have been able to track the sources and causes of their ability.

Humans have developed Glo-Stix and thermal heat-cold packs that produce light, warmth or cold, seemingly miraculously... if you don't know the nature behind them. ;) They are all technologies people could make after thoroughly understanding the nature of physics and chemistry, and then exploiting them.

A human who can make an object move, or seemingly defy gravity, is also exploiting technology. In this case, probably a carefully hidden bellows operated by a foot pump, that can blow an object away and thus "make it move," or a carefully hidden, thin, transparent filament tied to the object, that can be jerked away by an accomplice. Gravity can be "defyed" by similar illusion.

Why do you think magic shows are still popular? When an object appears to levitate, we're amazed and confounded, but if the magician were to explain the secret, we'd feel duped and deflated --- how simple the reason! We should have known it all along!

-----------------------------------------------

"Sherlock Holmes' quick eye took in my occupation, and he shook his head with a smile as he noticed my questioning glances. "Beyond the obvious facts that he has at some time done manual labour, that he takes snuff, that he is a Freemason, that he has been in China, and that he has done a considerable amount of writing lately, I can deduce nothing else."

Mr. Jabez Wilson started up in his chair, with his forefinger upon the paper, but his eyes upon my companion.

"How, in the name of good-fortune, did you know all that, Mr. Holmes?" he asked. "How did you know, for example, that I did manual labour. It's as true as gospel, for I began as a ship's carpenter."

"Your hands, my dear sir. Your right hand is quite a size larger than your left. You have worked with it, and the muscles are more developed."

"Well, the snuff, then, and the Freemasonry?"

"I won't insult your intelligence by telling you how I read that, especially as, rather against the strict rules of your order, you use an arc-and-compass breastpin."

"Ah, of course, I forgot that. But the writing?"

"What else can be indicated by that right cuff so very shiny for five inches, and the left one with the smooth patch near the elbow where you rest it upon the desk?"

"Well, but China?"

"The fish that you have tattooed immediately above your right wrist could only have been done in China. I have made a small study of tattoo marks and have even contributed to the literature of the subject. That trick of staining the fishes' scales of a delicate pink is quite peculiar to China. When, in addition, I see a Chinese coin hanging from your watch-chain, the matter becomes even more simple."

Mr. Jabez Wilson laughed heavily. "Well, I never!" said he. "I thought at first that you had done something clever, but I see that there was nothing in it, after all."

"I begin to think, Watson," said Holmes, "that I make a mistake in explaining. 'Omne ignotum pro magnifico,' you know, and my poor little reputation, such as it is, will suffer shipwreck if I am so candid. Can you not find the advertisement, Mr. Wilson?"
-- "The Adventure of the Red-Headed League" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Interloper on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:57 pm

^Omne ignotum pro magnifico = "everything unknown appears magnificent"
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4816
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby donjitsu2 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:09 pm

Interloper wrote:For example, there has been absolutely no indication that the human nervous system is able to emit detectible electrical/electromagnetic charges or fields. We simply have not evolved in that direction.



That isn't even close to true.

Our nervous system and heart both produce electromagnetic energy as a result of their normal day-to-day functioning. In fact, most metabolic processes produce some form of electromagnetic energy. When put under pressure (such as being squeezed during a muscular contraction) our bones produce small amounts of electricity - this is called the piezoelectric effect.

These bioelectromagnetic fields are easily detectable.

Electroencephalography (EEG, or the study of the electromagnetic field emitted by the brain via scalp sensors), Electrocardiography (ECG, or the study of the electrical activity of the heart via sensors placed on the skin near the heart), and Electromyography (EMG, or the study of electrical activity produced by skeletal muscles) would not exist if this weren't true.

It's one thing to say that human beings don't produce/will never be capable of producing enough electromagnetic energy to physically move another human being....BUT it is pretty ignorant to state we simply don't produce an EM Field - because it has long be an established scientific fact that we do.


Train Hard,
Josh Skinner
(Un)Caged Fighter - My Blog!

johnwang wrote:There's no such thing as "impossible"; there's only "you haven't trained hard enough".
User avatar
donjitsu2
Santi
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:33 pm

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Coiled_Spring on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:37 pm

The principle is called "Action at a distance"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_ ... physics%29

Nobody "emits" force. But physics doesn't say that two bodies require contact for there to exist an exchange of momentum. I bet the total momentum of the "master + brick" is still not violating the law of conservation of momentum. Of course, thats an approximation because its not a closed system (master + brick) and there are non conservative forces existing there.

Also, Interloper, you are thinking from the perspective of an American/western cultural context, where the primary motivation, aim, goal of every individual in society is to gain fame or money and he works hard for it. Your logic is false. Its the same as saying that Chen style Tai Chi is false because they do not enter UFC. The man doesn't need to enter Randi's challenge. If you have been in contact with conservative/traditional martial artists, you would realize that they rather attempt to hide their "real skills" or protect them from 'outsiders' instead of revealing them. You need to take cultural context into account.
Coiled_Spring
Huajing
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: India

Re: LIghtness skill and empty force

Postby Coiled_Spring on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:45 pm

Interloper,

What you think of as "natural" is just the conditioning through your five senses (six actually) since your childhood via your observation of a subset of reality due to the limitation of senses themselves. For example, if you go to the below link you will be able to test the highest range of frequency you can hear. Not every individual has the same range. You will hear some pitches in the beginning and beyond a point, you will click on "play" button but will not be able to hear something. You cannot hear it but the sound is still there. Someone else much younger could probably hear it. Same with other senses.

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/
Coiled_Spring
Huajing
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 11:58 pm
Location: India

PreviousNext

Return to Been There Done That

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests