Images from Dr. Stephen Yan

[stephen yan]

Ym wrote :According to Chen Weiming, Yang Luchan did a snake posture in which he would pick up a coin on the floor with his chin: do *you* do that ?
how to pick up? his chin had fingers?

[stephen yan]

DONG CHEN's decendent (or family tree member's decendent) in QIAN LONG of qing dynasty used similar theory and essence ,created ying yang ba gua (pan) zhang based on Dong chen's creation of ying yang ba bu chui, and the 3rd generation master in the family of yybpz was Dong menglin who taught Dong heichuan(who was bagua founder ,from he bai province)and Li zhen qing.

Can someone explain how Ba Fan Shan style comes into this, as Dong Menglin and other relatives are known for practicing (what is now called Fanzi Quan) this. There have been articles (Kang Ge Wou's infamous thesis among them) showing the same postures in Ba Gua as in Fanzi.

So, what you are saying implies that YYBPZ and Ba Fan Shan are related?

Or Dong Menglin taught both to his nephew Dong Haichuan?

sal , Dong hai chuan used Ba Fan Shan 's moves(which he learned in his youth before he met Dong meng lin )and use yybpz 5th circle walking to created 8 palms (called old 8 palms)which was done all 8 palms in circle walking , only hand techniques defferent , nothing else .

[ParryPerson]

GrahamB wrote :agree too. We also practice our slow form in a fast manner as part of our training, like many other lines here do. I think this is essentially what is meant by the 'fast form'. But it has become something that has been 'set in stone' in a certain lineage as a separate 'fast form'. So, the older way of doing the form was faster, but that doesn't mean they needed a separate 'fast form' that was the original form. I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.



are you also saying the best yang style disciple Tian zhao lin and yang s h 's another student wu tu nan ,and yang c f's grandson were all lying ?

[stephen yan]

I have to take issue with Stephen Yan over this quote from the other thread,
"Cheng Tin Hung said to me that he learned 21 moves from his uncle whom was wu jian quan's diciple ,the rest learned qimingxuian ,but i believe qimingxuian was a name he made up for the purpose to break away from wu family"
This is a serious and inaccurate accusation.
Long Zi Yang (who taught Sun style TCC) in his 1951 book Tai Chi Chuan Xue (TCC Learning) mentions Qi Kesan (father of Qi Minxuan) in his lineage chart as senior student of Wu Quan-you (father of Wu Jian-quan) at a time when Cheng Tin-hung was only 20 and not a famous teacher.
Dan Docherty who was there when you learnt Nei Gong from Cheng Tin Hung in Hong Kong, may be you didn´t know that Dan knew Long´s son very well.
You are not the only one to make false rumours about Qi Minxuan. There were also a few similar false attacks aimed at Cheng Tin Hung made in Malaysia.
The split with the Wu´s is another matter There are lies too about him and the Wu family. Eddie Wu admitted in Tai Chi Chuan magazine that Cheng Tin hung was at one time head of the Wu lineage, but Cheng Tin Hung never made that claim. After he threw Wu Gong-yi to the ground and told him his kung fu was in his mouth and not his hands, All contact with the Wu´s was lost. (Requiem to a Tai Chi bodyguard)

The fast form presented to the world in the 1980´s by Ma Yue Liang was the first anybody had heard of a fast form from a Wu style. It seems from these threads that many people still believe it was made up. You still have not resolved that suspicion.
I think it is great that you are learning so much, the whole Wu curriculum and saving it for tai chi heritage and much more besides but what is the use of learning of 4 sabre styles and three sword styles for example if you can´t do even one well. The dilemma of what is transmitted and what is the essence of a pure transmission is important to the real capacity of learn the material of not only exceptional masters but also so called normal students. So the art is preserved but also continues to flourish in the future without being over burdened with just too much material, To pass through the ritual initiation of Bai Shi requires humility and respect. To be men ren requires responsibiity.

i totally agree with your points you made , personally i respect master Cheng Tin Hung very much with his open mind and attitude towards how to keep taiji as a martial arts rather than only for health . but two points here :

one , i never came cross the name of Qi Minxuan in my research , so i made a guess. now you mentioned Qi Kesan whom was wu quan you's disciple , then this started to make sense, as among wu quan you's disciples ,there was one called Qi ge cheng ,so Qi Kesan and QI ge cheng must be same person as lots of chinese has name ,zhi ,or hao .Since Qi ming xuan was Qi ge cheng's son , then master cheng tin hung learned from him was quite logical . but why master cheng t h 's book didn't mention QI ge cheng (or Qi kesan)and Qi ming XUAN WAS HIS SON ? if i knew this line , then i would't need to make a guess , it seemed my guess was incorrect. yes i met Dan Docherty when i was learning from master Cheng t h ,he was a nice guy ,by that time master cheng t h was in high spirit and required me to have a PH with Dan Docherty ,and we did a friendly one ,pretty much equal ,of course Dan said he was a bit tired after a long flight ,it is already 13 years passed now , time flys fast , pls pass my regards to Dan ,and there have been several students of came to my class in wellington over the years, they are all nice people , i always support master cheng's ideas and himsel and his disciples as pioneers to put taiji to real combating practise.

you are right ,if a person even could't do one swords form properly ,then what is is point to do 2nd one .but i just feel too pitty to lose some art , conservative really has made lots of the art to be lost in the past , so i like to be like master CHENG's attitude ,to teach all out or to write all out as i can sense the danger it could be lost if i don't do so , it is not for money , i just wouldn't have peace if i can do it yet not to make effort.

this is first time i heard Cheng and wu g y PH ,AND WAS THE REASON that master Cheng t h broke away from HK wu, it seemed somehow my understanding of the reason was influenced by some magzine. thank you for letting know .

[stephen yan]

d,i will go to he bei to stay with my y y bpz master for a while , he is 88 years old and the only living master of grand master ren zhi cheng's disciples.

Stephen, there are actually quite a few of Ren Zhicheng's disciples around. When I was in Wen'an two years ago without much problem I met two of them, including one who was 93 at that time.

From what I see Wangbao Spear is also well, with many people studying the art in Bo'ai/Jiaozuo area. Of course old teachers complain that the young generation does not practice hard enough, but with all respect I do not think you will be able to invest as much time and effort in practice as many young people in the countryside there do.

Good luck with your research!

Jarek

hi Jarek , nice to hear from you again. you could be right eventhough i checked with the local masters again they still said the master i learned from was the only alive disciple of ren zhi cheng, but they live in a isolated places ,and don't communicate with outside that much . if what you met was real , then it is a lucky thing for CMA, hope they passed the art down to some one and their students are strict with the original art , not like Ren wen zhu of gao zhi kai's student ,mixed other bagua and hua quan into yybpz.

as to the '"pear flower liu he qiang ,i believe that time and effort is important ,but understanding is also very important, especially i did shaolin spear when i was young ,and have been practising spears from xylhq, wu taiji and yybpz , so it shouldn't take too much effort to understand it ,plus i want to know any links or defferences with the famouse pear flower spear and the ones i learned from xylh, tai ji and yybpz. most of all ,the two masters i found are the only ones of mastering the whole spear system ,they told me that they couldn't found students who are that seriously practise or unable to spend enough effort to pratise , if their saying is truful , then i worry the art to be lost in time ,if their saying was just to express their concern of yong people there not practise hard enough ,then i still want to make it secure that to keep a copy of the art and understand it , in case one day it lost in china or partialy lost or lost the true meaning like xylhq,taiji or yybpz or yijinjing ...then i will one day passed it back to china, it is kind of my way of love to china and my respect to the masters who created and passed those amazing arts.

btw ,my friend master xu (whose line was direct from tongbei founder Dong chen ) said he would give me a copy of 8 volums of tong bei old quan pu for helping me to do research and we will exchange skills ,how nice such a person he is !

[Darth Rock&Roll]

If I may interject, that Picard and Riker pic is fuckin awesome!

[edededed]

More pictures from Dr. Yan (5th set):

All pictures are of Wu Tunan's (吳圖南) fast form, from Yang Shaohou:

[king-kong]

I have to take issue with Stephen Yan over this quote from the other thread,
"Cheng Tin Hung said to me that he learned 21 moves from his uncle whom was wu jian quan's diciple ,the rest learned qimingxuian ,but i believe qimingxuian was a name he made up for the purpose to break away from wu family"
This is a serious and inaccurate accusation.
Long Zi Yang (who taught Sun style TCC) in his 1951 book Tai Chi Chuan Xue (TCC Learning) mentions Qi Kesan (father of Qi Minxuan) in his lineage chart as senior student of Wu Quan-you (father of Wu Jian-quan) at a time when Cheng Tin-hung was only 20 and not a famous teacher.
Dan Docherty who was there when you learnt Nei Gong from Cheng Tin Hung in Hong Kong, may be you didn´t know that Dan knew Long´s son very well.
You are not the only one to make false rumours about Qi Minxuan. There were also a few similar false attacks aimed at Cheng Tin Hung made in Malaysia.
The split with the Wu´s is another matter There are lies too about him and the Wu family. Eddie Wu admitted in Tai Chi Chuan magazine that Cheng Tin hung was at one time head of the Wu lineage, but Cheng Tin Hung never made that claim. After he threw Wu Gong-yi to the ground and told him his kung fu was in his mouth and not his hands, All contact with the Wu´s was lost. (Requiem to a Tai Chi bodyguard)

The fast form presented to the world in the 1980´s by Ma Yue Liang was the first anybody had heard of a fast form from a Wu style. It seems from these threads that many people still believe it was made up. You still have not resolved that suspicion.
I think it is great that you are learning so much, the whole Wu curriculum and saving it for tai chi heritage and much more besides but what is the use of learning of 4 sabre styles and three sword styles for example if you can´t do even one well. The dilemma of what is transmitted and what is the essence of a pure transmission is important to the real capacity of learn the material of not only exceptional masters but also so called normal students. So the art is preserved but also continues to flourish in the future without being over burdened with just too much material, To pass through the ritual initiation of Bai Shi requires humility and respect. To be men ren requires responsibiity.

i totally agree with your points you made , personally i respect master Cheng Tin Hung very much with his open mind and attitude towards how to keep taiji as a martial arts rather than only for health . but two points here :

one , i never came cross the name of Qi Minxuan in my research , so i made a guess. now you mentioned Qi Kesan whom was wu quan you's disciple , then this started to make sense, as among wu quan you's disciples ,there was one called Qi ge cheng ,so Qi Kesan and QI ge cheng must be same person as lots of chinese has name ,zhi ,or hao .Since Qi ming xuan was Qi ge cheng's son , then master cheng tin hung learned from him was quite logical . but why master cheng t h 's book didn't mention QI ge cheng (or Qi kesan)and Qi ming XUAN WAS HIS SON ? if i knew this line , then i would't need to make a guess , it seemed my guess was incorrect. yes i met Dan Docherty when i was learning from master Cheng t h ,he was a nice guy ,by that time master cheng t h was in high spirit and required me to have a PH with Dan Docherty ,and we did a friendly one ,pretty much equal ,of course Dan said he was a bit tired after a long flight ,it is already 13 years passed now , time flys fast , pls pass my regards to Dan ,and there have been several students of came to my class in wellington over the years, they are all nice people , i always support master cheng's ideas and himsel and his disciples as pioneers to put taiji to real combating practise.

you are right ,if a person even could't do one swords form properly ,then what is is point to do 2nd one .but i just feel too pitty to lose some art , conservative really has made lots of the art to be lost in the past , so i like to be like master CHENG's attitude ,to teach all out or to write all out as i can sense the danger it could be lost if i don't do so , it is not for money , i just wouldn't have peace if i can do it yet not to make effort.

this is first time i heard Cheng and wu g y PH ,AND WAS THE REASON that master Cheng t h broke away from HK wu, it seemed somehow my understanding of the reason was influenced by some magzine. thank you for letting know .

Cheng Tin-Hung’s first book written in 1961, “Intensive examination into TCC” gives full details of Qi Min-xuan and his background in Cheng Tin-hung’s foreword. With Cheng’s blessing Dan Docherty included his translation of said foreword in his 1995 book “Instant Tao”. According to Dan Docherty Cheng Tin-hung often talked to them of his master, Qi Min-xuan. Qi was born in Wen county in Henan province. He was a devout lay Chan (zen) buddhist. He was 50 years old when invited to Hong Kong by Cheng Wing-Kwong to whom he had been recommended by a master Chiu.
"It was Qi who explained the classics to Cheng Tin Hung. Qi in turn had been taught firstly by his father Qi Kesan, but his main teacher was a buddhist monk named Ching Yat (this was the mans adopted Buddhist title and means Pure One) Ching Yat had befriended the renegade soldier Wang Lan-ting who (after killing some Manchus) had been forced to flee the temple where Ching Yat resided.
Wang had learned in turn from Chen Kang-yun, the son of Chen Chang-xing and later from Yang Lu-chan."

[king-kong]

Yes it´s possible that would be about 1850-1870 when he trained with the Chen´s. Why BTDT? O well.........

[Yuen-Ming]

Compelled to write a few additional notes, before the "research" of some "self-proclaimed historians" are passed down in the web as *accurate informations" <sic>.

there were no "many frames in yang l c's time",not only in yang lc 's time but in his teacher chen chang xin's time as well

The vaste curriculum of the early Yang family, starting from Yang Luchan and adding up with Banhou/Jianhou to Shaohou, is well documented in various articles and books in the Mainland. Most descendants of Banhou in Yongnian, in Li Wancheng's as well as in other lines, practice a pletora of sets some of which they ascribe to Yang Luchan - others to Banhou. Their 'quanpu' (manual) is also quite clear as to what comes from Yang Luchan and what was added by Banhou. They have a dozen of different sets + weapons + exercises + partner practices.

Wang Lanting was an early disciple of Yang Luchan and also describes his training under Yang Luchan quite vividly in his preface to their 'quanpu', while a list of the various sets he learned under Master Yang is given.
It also reports the words of Yang Luchan in which he explains the curriculum he learned from Chen Changxin, actually.

Fu Chou, another early disciple of Yang Luchan and friend of Wang Lanting, also transmitted various sets in the line that is now called Funei Pai by some of its adherents.

It's good that this thread is gone to BTDT as it was spreading personal opinions (unfounded and biased) as it they were historical facts. Mixing history when necessary as in:

look at the Li family's quan pu of early qing dynasty , only one hand form

and quoting early Qing material to support a theory that refers to late Qing and keep spreading totally unaccurate and unfounded theories like

so for tai ji originally only one form called "13 posture"(after 1914 , when yang and wu created slow one ,then it was called fast form)

Needless to say, the 'depth' of his *research* can be seen in every minor issue like when he says

i never came cross the name of Qi Minxuan in my research [...] but why master cheng t h 's book didn't mention QI ge cheng (or Qi kesan)and Qi ming XUAN WAS HIS SON ?

Qi Minxuan is referred to in more than one chinese publication, some quite early in fact, and of course in Cheng Tinhung's publications.

Oh well ...

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

Just a minor question of historical curiosity: Is this the same Wang Lanting who taught Liu Ruidong?

If so, this is the second reference I've seen to Chen Chang-xing's son Chen Gengyun working in Beijing (where, according to the Liu Ruidong lineage, Wang was a steward or "palace manager" for the Manchu Prince Duan in Beijing, and besides training with Yang Luchan, also studied baguazhang with Dong Haichuan). The other reference was to Chen Gengyun working as a bodyguard in Beijing before or around the same time that Yang Luchan first arrived.

Back to the main topic (whatever that is)

Tom,

for your info.
This information comes from Cheng Tinhung and it is totally unaccurate.
Wang Lanting, as passed down orally by his descendants and according to his quanpu which is still complete, has never studied with the Chen's. He also never had to leave to capital after killing somebody but simply decided to leave and actually left Li Ruidong a plan of the place he had intention to travel to, asking him to visit him in a year time.

There is of course no reason to exclude the possibility that Cheng Tinhung studied for a brief period with Qi Minxuan, who was a Wu style exponent, but according to the uncorrect story told and having seen what puportedly QMX passed to Cheng it is clear that QMX could't possibly have been in Wang Lanting's line.
By the way, the famous '24 yin/yang' set was already practiced by the Ng Kung Yi (Wu Gongyi) group in Hong Kong before Cheng made it popular and can also be found in other arts, basically a perfect copy of it, even in the USA.

YM

[king-kong]

We have our oral tradition also
Cheng Tin-Hung’s first book written in 1961, “Intensive examination into TCC” gives full details of Qi Min-xuan and his background in Cheng Tin-hung’s foreword. With Cheng’s blessing Dan Docherty included his translation of said foreword in his 1995 book “Instant Tao”. According to Dan Docherty Cheng Tin-hung often talked to them of his master, Qi Min-xuan. Qi was born in Wen county in Henan province. He was a devout lay Chan (zen) buddhist. He was 50 years old when invited to Hong Kong by Cheng Wing-Kwong to whom he had been recommended by a master Chiu.
"It was Qi who explained the classics to Cheng Tin Hung. Qi in turn had been taught firstly by his father Qi Kesan, but his main teacher was a buddhist monk named Ching Yat (this was the mans adopted Buddhist title and means Pure One) Ching Yat had befriended the renegade soldier Wang Lan-ting who (after killing some Manchus) had been forced to flee the temple where Ching Yat resided.
Wang had trained in turn from Chen Kang-yun, the son of Chen Chang-xing and later from Yang Lu-chan."
Dan Docherty says if this happened during the time period of 1855-1870 would make it curious because if he could learn tai Chi from Chen Chang-xing´s son, then why couldn´t Wu Yu-xiang also? Dan speculates that they didn´t want to teach Wu who was only willing or able to stay for a short time and who had already trained with Yang Lu Chan; and so Wu sought out the only available alternative Chen Qing-ping.
Yuen Ming are you denying that Ching Yat the buddhist monk existed and that he never befriended Wang Lan Ting?
CTH say Qi Min-xuan met the buddhist monk Ching Yat through his interest in zen Buddhism
In midsummer 1946 CTH met Master Zhi Meng (Sagacious elder) The masters secular name was Qi and given name was Min-xuan. CTH says he was well versed in the art of Tai Chi Chuan and the mysteries of Nei Kung.
He goes on to say "When the master taught me he constantly emphasised the practical application of the art, he himself would act as my opponeent and order me to make use of Tai Chi Chuan techniques to dissolve his attacks and furthemore hit back at him The Nei Kung he must have learnt from his father Qi Kesan who learnt the set as a senior student of Quan Yu.
Yuen Ming you say Qi Minxuan is referred to in more than one chinese publication, some quite early in fact, and of course in Cheng Tinhung's publications. would love to see these references . I have often wondered if Wang Lanting may have spent some time in a Buddhist temple even seeking refuge there may be some temple records but I imagine they would have been lost or destroyed during the years of war.

[Yuen-Ming]

So are you denying that Ching Yat the buddhist monk existed and that he never befriended Wang Lan Ting?
CTH say Qi Min-xuan met the buddhist monk Ching Yat through his interest in zen Buddhism
In midsummer 1946 CTH met Master Zhi Meng (Sagacious elder) The masters secular name was Qi and given name was Min-xuan. CTH says he was well versed in the art of Tai Chi Chuan and the mysteries of Nei Kung.
He goes on to say "When the master taught me he constantly emphasised the practical application of the art, he himself would act as my opponeent and order me to make use of Tai Chi Chuan techniques to dissolve his attacks and furthemore hit back at him The Nei Kung he must have learnt from his father Qi Kesan who llearnt from Quan Yu.
Yuen Ming you say Qi Minxuan is referred to in more than one chinese publication, some quite early in fact, and of course in Cheng Tinhung's publications. would love to see these references . I have often wondered if Wang Lanting may have spent some time in a Buddhist temple even seeking refuge there may be some temple records but I imagine they would have been lost or destroyed during the years of war.

Hello KK,

of course there is no reason to disbelieve Cheng Tinhung when he said he met and possibly studied a bit with Qi Minxuan.
There is also no evidence to conclude that Ching Yat did not exist, for what we know (and actually don't) so I'd say that is also possible.

What I am saying is that Qi Minxuan was, according to various sources extra-Cheng, a Wu style pratictioner.
I am also saying that, watching the reflection of what Cheng would have learned from Qi, there is NO TRACE of a transmission by Wang Lanting. Moreover, as told be by various Wu style people here in HK, they also practiced the 24 y/y so that would be another Wy style thing and not a practice coming from extra-Wu sources.

I'll have to check where I saw mention to Qi Minxuan, I never paid much attention to it, but I am quite sure about that.

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

there were no "many frames in yang l c's time",not only in yang lc 's time but in his teacher chen chang xin's time as well

[...]

obviously , chen c x only had one form which late on was called "old frame"

For those interested let me quote from Yang Luchan's 'quanpu' (manual as passed down in Yongnian) with regard to YLC's original curriculum which contained:

- one 108 set called 'changquan'
- five different sets of fist-style (called main, second, third, fourth or hongquan and fifth)
- five different sets of chui-style
- one set called 'xiao sitao'
- one set called 'sanshou'
- one set called 'duanda'
- a second 'duanda' set

plus ancillary sets such as:

- dantian xinggong fa
- dang xinggong fa
- tinjing xinggong fa
- yuan xinggong fa
- shangxia xinggongfa
- jindui xinggong fa
- kaihe xinggongfa
- churu xinggong fa
- lingluo xinggong fa
- yingshan xinggong fa
- luosi xinggongfa
- beisikou xinggong fa

and a ton of other material, plus partner practice and all weapon sets.

YM

[GrahamB]

- one 108 set called 'changquan'

Hi,

Have you seen this one? I'm guessing that's the one that became Yang Cheng-Fu's form?

Cheers,
G