Images from Dr. Stephen Yan

[Doc Stier]

- one 108 set called 'changquan'

Have you seen this one? I'm guessing that's the one that became Yang Cheng-Fu's form?

Hi Graham:

That's was I was told. My teacher, Lee Wing-Wah, trained with Yang Chien-Hou during the last two years of his life, and thereafter with Chien-Hou's eldest son, Yang Shao-Hou, for a number of years time. Lee said that this Large Frame Chang Chuan 108 Forms Set (Long Boxing) is the one that Yang Lu-Chan taught to the Imperial Prince, and thus in doing so wisely presented to the Prince as the Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set in order to insure that no disfavor would be encountered at the Imperial House.

Yang Cheng-Fu's Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set is essentially an edited and modified revision of this older Large Frame 108 Forms Set, with the elimination of some repetitions of postures and postures of different names that he judged to be so similar in shape that they should be considered the same posture with the same name. Cheng-Fu's Set closely follows the same sequential arrangement of postures in older 108 Set and maintains the same names for the postures which were retained in his modified revision.

In contrast, Yang Chien-Hou's Medium Frame 90 Forms Set differs from both the Large Frame Chang Chuan/Long Imperial 108 Forms Set and Yang Cheng-Fu's Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set in it's sequential arrangement of postures and in its connecting transitional movements, although the names of the postures common to all three sets are generally the same.

Doc

[Yuen-Ming]

- one 108 set called 'changquan'

Have you seen this one? I'm guessing that's the one that became Yang Cheng-Fu's form?

No, I haven't seen it performed and I believe it has been lost in the Yongnian group.
The 108 was certainly not transmitted 'as it is' to Banhou as it is not in his quanpu and Shaohou also does not have it, but by comparing its quanpu (list/names of moves) that would not be the case: they are quite different.

Yang Cheng Fu's standard frame, which they call 'dajia' (large frame) in their curriculum, comes from Yang Jianhou's 'zhongjia' (middle frame) which is Jianhou's basic/introductory frame.
Both Banhou and Jianhou had a very similar frame (one of many), which in Banhou's line is called 'dajia' and in Jianhou's line is called 'zhongjia', and this is were Yang Chengfu's standard frame comes from. In both lines it was an introductory frame.

YM

[stephen yan]

More pictures from Dr. Yan (5th set):

All pictures are of Wu Tunan's (吳圖南) fast form, from Yang Shaohou:

i just asked Ed to post quite few wu tu nan's fast form pictures as one of the evidences that ma yue liang's fast form was the original one that wu quan you learned from yang l c and yang b h,even the name "er ben zhi "is same.

[stephen yan]

king-kong wrote:Cheng Tin-Hung’s first book written in 1961, “Intensive examination into TCC” gives full details of Qi Min-xuan and his background in Cheng Tin-hung’s foreword. With Cheng’s blessing Dan Docherty included his translation of said foreword in his 1995 book “Instant Tao”. According to Dan Docherty Cheng Tin-hung often talked to them of his master, Qi Min-xuan. Qi was born in Wen county in Henan province. He was a devout lay Chan (zen) buddhist. He was 50 years old when invited to Hong Kong by Cheng Wing-Kwong to whom he had been recommended by a master Chiu.
"It was Qi who explained the classics to Cheng Tin Hung. Qi in turn had been taught firstly by his father Qi Kesan, but his main teacher was a buddhist monk named Ching Yat (this was the mans adopted Buddhist title and means Pure One) Ching Yat had befriended the renegade soldier Wang Lan-ting who (after killing some Manchus) had been forced to flee the temple where Ching Yat resided.
Wang had learned in turn from Chen Kang-yun, the son of Chen Chang-xing and later from Yang Lu-chan."


interesting history , did master cheng t h kept any qi m x 's photoe?

[stephen yan]

Y M wrote:The vaste curriculum of the early Yang family, starting from Yang Luchan and adding up with Banhou/Jianhou to Shaohou, is well documented in various articles and books in the Mainland. Most descendants of Banhou in Yongnian, in Li Wancheng's as well as in other lines, practice a pletora of sets some of which they ascribe to Yang Luchan - others to Banhou. Their 'quanpu' (manual) is also quite clear as to what comes from Yang Luchan and what was added by Banhou. They have a dozen of different sets + weapons + exercises + partner practices.

Wang Lanting was an early disciple of Yang Luchan and also describes his training under Yang Luchan quite vividly in his preface to their 'quanpu', while a list of the various sets he learned under Master Yang is given.
It also reports the words of Yang Luchan in which he explains the curriculum he learned from Chen Changxin, actually.

Fu Chou, another early disciple of Yang Luchan and friend of Wang Lanting, also transmitted various sets in the line that is now called Funei Pai by some of its adherents.

It's good that this thread is gone to BTDT as it was spreading personal opinions (unfounded and biased) as it they were historical facts. Mixing history when necessary as in:

you talk about "quan pu " where are the quan pu ? or just your imagination? many people claim they learned from yang lu chan or yang b h just like some people claim they do Tong dynasty taiji form,or like the guy"s video you refered that" can use chin to pick up coins" also said his line was from wu quan you ....how amazing !you use your fantacy to replace the facts.

[stephen yan]

YM wrote: Qi Minxuan is referred to in more than one chinese publication, some quite early in fact, and of course in Cheng Tinhung's publications.

where Qi Minxuan is referred to in more than one chinese publication, apart from in Cheng Tinhung's publications? or just another fantacy?

[stephen yan]

YM WROTE: Wang Lanting, as passed down orally by his descendants and according to his quanpu which is still complete,

YOUR fantacy again? or you simply use LI r d's lineage to replace wang lan ting 's decendent?
'

[Yuen-Ming]

you use your fantacy to replace the facts.

or just another fantacy?

YOUR fantacy again?

It is spelled FANTASY

To be in New Zeland since 1988 your english sucks

YM

[stephen yan]

YM WROTE: I'll have to check where I saw mention to Qi Minxuan, I never paid much attention to it, but I am quite sure about that.

well , when comes to show the evidences , this is your way to say, just like you said there were many forms from yang l c and yang b h .and at same time you can ignor the lineage succeser's saying ,not only wu , but tian z l , yang c f's son ,wu t n, ect.

[cdobe]

i just asked Ed to post quite few wu tu nan's fast form pictures as one of the evidences that ma yue liang's fast form was the original one that wu quan you learned from yang l c and yang b h,even the name "er ben zhi "is same.

This point of yours failed. Just let it go now.

The form presented by Tunan is his 用架 (attributed to Yang Shaohou), which is exactly the same as in the videos that are widely available on the internet. Not only this is self-evident from comparing the videos with the photos, it is also explicitly stated by himself.

[stephen yan]

there were no "many frames in yang l c's time",not only in yang lc 's time but in his teacher chen chang xin's time as well

[...]

obviously , chen c x only had one form which late on was called "old frame"

For those interested let me quote from Yang Luchan's 'quanpu' (manual as passed down in Yongnian) with regard to YLC's original curriculum which contained:

- one 108 set called 'changquan'
- five different sets of fist-style (called main, second, third, fourth or hongquan and fifth)
- five different sets of chui-style
- one set called 'xiao sitao'
- one set called 'sanshou'
- one set called 'duanda'
- a second 'duanda' set

plus ancillary sets such as:

- dantian xinggong fa
- dang xinggong fa
- tinjing xinggong fa
- yuan xinggong fa
- shangxia xinggongfa
- jindui xinggong fa
- kaihe xinggongfa
- churu xinggong fa
- lingluo xinggong fa
- yingshan xinggong fa
- luosi xinggongfa
- beisikou xinggong fa

and a ton of other material, plus partner practice and all weapon sets.

YM

unfortunatly , young nian 's these years' claims has little cridibility, no serious taiji rsearchers trust these claims. after all ,are those your evidences? no wonder you shy to present them.

[stephen yan]

you use your fantacy to replace the facts.

or just another fantacy?

YOUR fantacy again?

It is spelled FANTASY

To be in New Zeland since 1988 your english sucks

YM

i always let other person type for me ,as i spent most of my time in training and research , luckly my mind is not like your sucked one

[Yuen-Ming]

i always let other person type for me ,as i spent most of my time in training and research

You'd better use your time typing then, as your time spent on "research" is wasted

Good luck, Mr. Right !



YM

[stephen yan]

i just asked Ed to post quite few wu tu nan's fast form pictures as one of the evidences that ma yue liang's fast form was the original one that wu quan you learned from yang l c and yang b h,even the name "er ben zhi "is same.

This point of yours failed. Just let it go now.

The form presented by Tunan is his 用架 (attributed to Yang Shaohou), which is exactly the same as in the videos that are widely available on the internet. Not only this is self-evident from comparing the videos with the photos, it is also explicitly stated by himself.

this was the form that wu t n said that it was yang s h's fast form, it is almost same as master ma y l 's fast form. it means that yang s h 's fast form same as wu jian quan's fast form and ma y l ,wu y h learned from wu j q ,the reason yang s h's fast form and wu j q's fast form so similar was because the fast form was originally all from yang l c.

[stephen yan]

BTW, in my trip in china this time , i will visit Jiang FA's village , as Jiang's decendent set up a grave stone several years ago where recorded jiang f's life and tai ji ,but was forcely removed by the local govt. i will also visit WANG zhong yue's village as it is not toofar away from ping yao .