Images from Dr. Stephen Yan

[edededed]

Some more pictures (4th set) from Dr. Yan (only this thread this time, as the other is locked):


Letter from Ma Yueliang (馬岳樑) to Dr. Yan (Chinese name: 顏紫元, Yan Ziyuan) - starts with "Good disciple Ziyuan, hello."


Ma Jiangbao (馬江豹) and Yan Ziyuan


Wu Yinghua (吳英華) and Yan Ziyuan


Wu Yinghua, Ma Yueliang, and Yan Ziyuan


Ma Yueliang and Yan Ziyuan

(For those that don't know, Wu Yinghua was Wu Jianquan's (吳鑒泉) oldest daughter; Ma Yueliang married Wu Yinghua and was thus Wu Jianquan's son-in-law; Ma Jiangbao is Ma Yueliang's second son.)

[king-kong]

That was how Wu Tu Nan started his legendary century-long relationship with Taijigong, at the age of 9. For the first 8 years, he studied under Wu Jian Quan (founder of Wu School of Taiji) and then 4 years of Taijigong under Yang Shao Hou. By the time he was in his twenties he was already a master of Taiji.
http://www.wutunantaijigong.com/wutunan.htm
Yang Shou Hou had few disciples, one of them was the famous master Wu Tu Nan who lived to be 105. Before Wu Tu Nan died, he published a book in which he recorded Yang Shao Hou's boxing set and the only known photographs of the set being performed by Wu himself. He writes this concerning how the form is performed:
"This set of small fames has two hundred over movements, these must be performed and completed within a time of around three minutes." (Wu Tu Nan, Taijiquan Zhi Yan Jiu, 1984, page 100)
Wu lists the small frame set as consisting of 73 postures in total. According to Wu, Yang Shao Hou told him that this set was passed down to him by his grandfather Yang Lu Chan. (Wu Tu Nan, Taijiquan Zhi Yan Jiu, 1984, page 97-98)
Wu Tu Nan's student Xu Zhi Jun wrote a book on the small frame In it he states the set should be performed within 2 minutes. (Xu Zhi Jun, Yang Shi Taijiquan – Xiao Jia Yi Qi Ji Ji Ying Yung, 1991, page 36)
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/tcspeed.htm

[cdobe]

Since this a picture thread ...

[Yuen-Ming]

That was how Wu Tu Nan started his legendary century-long relationship with Taijigong, at the age of 9. For the first 8 years, he studied under Wu Jian Quan (founder of Wu School of Taiji) and then 4 years of Taijigong under Yang Shao Hou. By the time he was in his twenties he was already a master of Taiji.
http://www.wutunantaijigong.com/wutunan.htm

Most of Wu Tunan biographies are factually uncorrect, especially the late one.
Wu Tunan was born in 1902 and not 1885 so many of the references to his studies are not correct.
One for many, with reference to the subject of discussion, Wu Tunan DID NOT study with Yang Shaohou for four years

YM

[GrahamB]

Since this a picture thread ...

In case anybody doesn't realise what these pictures are, they are stills from the video of Wu Tu Nan doing his fast form, alongside the pictures that Stephen Yan says are not from this form.

The picture evidence seems conclusive to me. Trying to argue that the still photos and the video are not the same form at this point would be foolish.

[shawnsegler]

It is the whole process and, most of all, the maniacal work on it that produces results.

I wonder if this says anything about us a group.

S- thinking out loud

[cdobe]

[stephen yan]

Since this a picture thread ...

In case anybody doesn't realise what these pictures are, they are stills from the video of Wu Tu Nan doing his fast form, alongside the pictures that Stephen Yan says are not from this form.

The picture evidence seems conclusive to me. Trying to argue that the still photos and the video are not the same form at this point would be foolish.

it is foolish to just use this several photoes (which i let someone posted on the other thread to indicate the single whip was done by bow stance ,just like ma fast form's single whips ,all done by bow stances rather than wu j q's form which all done by horse stances, from this stance we can see ma's fast form still kept original young bow stances for single whips) to say it was same as wu tu nan's video while hasn't seen the rest of 70 more photoes of his fast form.

so my question for you guys is that HAVE YOU SEEN OR READ WU TUNAN'S "TAI JI QUAN RESEARCH "written by his only disciple ma you qin ,published in july 1984 in HK? in the book , it says the photoes was taken in 1962 .
i also have wu tu nan's 1930's tai ji quan book which was exactly the form he learned from wu jian quan.

if you guys have read those two books , then ,open your eyes wide and read again ,you will find all your saying was due to a little mind which blind your eyes . if you guy don't have above two books , let me know and i try to let people help me to post the rest pictures , then lets see if you guys can find the match from wu t n's video ,so be calm and first put your little mind aside , waite and see is the best way .

[stephen yan]

Oh my ...

Tian Yingjia's fast frame is simply ... Tian Yingjia's fast frame.
One only need to check out other disciples of Tian Zhaolin to find out that they do a different set of frames.
And by the way, Tian Zhaolin's own fast frame is HIS fast frame and not Shaohou's (on which it is only based).

Wu Tunan's fast frame was totally made up by himself based on his Wu style practice and this is where Yan might see similarities.
Wu Tunan was never a disciple of Yang Shaohou and only briefly studied with him, as a public student.

Again check with actual lines coming down from Yang Shaohou, they have a curriculum in common with Banhou's descendants + the additions made by Shaohou and and a few things from dad Jianhou. They all do more or less the same things, nothing in common with Wu Tunan and only slightly with the Tian transmission (that's why they call it Yang style Tian frame).

There is no old/original Taijiquan, that's a fantasy for those who have not understood what Taijiquan is all about and more recently a nice way to trick money out of gullible students.

Yang Luchan passed down to his first generation disciples, including his sons, a vast curriculum of which a "fast frame" was only a step of the full training path. There is not a single practice from the full curriculum that has the miracolous power of making the pratictioner another 'invincible Yang'. It is the whole process and, most of all, the maniacal work on it that produces results.

Yang Luchan passed various sets, exercises, wai/neigong practice and the first generation enlarged the curriculum even more inventing new and more specialized training systems. They were PROFESSIONALS whose lives depended on that and they devoted all their time in practice and testing. Third generation Shaohou received uncle Banhou's full curriculum, part of his dad Jianhou's practices and created some on his own - his curriculum was without doubt the most comprehensive and he passed down among a pletora of other things, to a few disciples only, two fast frames (his own and Banhou's).

Best

YM

Y M ,

your thread proves again that you are a master of great fantacy . where are the evidences if you are not fantancing?

[stephen yan]

cdobe says" wu tu nan's fast form's pictures in wu t n's book nothing like ma's fast form" ; Y M says "wu tu nan's fast form's pictures in wu t n's book same as ma's fast form as wu t n made the fast form up by himself based on the wu jian quan's slow form" .. THEN who OF YOU TWO is telling lies here ?

plus , YM , I WAS TOLD that yu zhi jun was 69 years old when he chanllenged me and we met , where did you get " he was 71 years old "from ? or just your fantacy ? plus he chanllenged me so i went , but your thread sounds like i went just to look for someone over 70 years to push hand or fight ,is this your standard way of manipulate things ?

[Doc Stier]

Apparently, Mr. Yan thinks:





And I keep thinking:



Doc

[velalavela]

Oh my ...

Tian Yingjia's fast frame is simply ... Tian Yingjia's fast frame.
One only need to check out other disciples of Tian Zhaolin to find out that they do a different set of frames.
And by the way, Tian Zhaolin's own fast frame is HIS fast frame and not Shaohou's (on which it is only based).

Wu Tunan's fast frame was totally made up by himself based on his Wu style practice and this is where Yan might see similarities.
Wu Tunan was never a disciple of Yang Shaohou and only briefly studied with him, as a public student.

Again check with actual lines coming down from Yang Shaohou, they have a curriculum in common with Banhou's descendants + the additions made by Shaohou and and a few things from dad Jianhou. They all do more or less the same things, nothing in common with Wu Tunan and only slightly with the Tian transmission (that's why they call it Yang style Tian frame).

There is no old/original Taijiquan, that's a fantasy for those who have not understood what Taijiquan is all about and more recently a nice way to trick money out of gullible students.

Yang Luchan passed down to his first generation disciples, including his sons, a vast curriculum of which a "fast frame" was only a step of the full training path. There is not a single practice from the full curriculum that has the miracolous power of making the pratictioner another 'invincible Yang'. It is the whole process and, most of all, the maniacal work on it that produces results.

Yang Luchan passed various sets, exercises, wai/neigong practice and the first generation enlarged the curriculum even more inventing new and more specialized training systems. They were PROFESSIONALS whose lives depended on that and they devoted all their time in practice and testing. Third generation Shaohou received uncle Banhou's full curriculum, part of his dad Jianhou's practices and created some on his own - his curriculum was without doubt the most comprehensive and he passed down among a pletora of other things, to a few disciples only, two fast frames (his own and Banhou's).

Best

YM

The problem I have with this argument of “no fast form existed or that it’s just created for people to try and pedal some secret form to get students” is there is too much evidence from too many sources. Also they are from reputable teachers/sources/lines.

Yang Style: Huang Xingxian (Huang Sheng-Shyan) Has his quick fist. He was Cheng Man Ching’s student.
Yang Style: Tung Ying Chieh Has his Tung Style Fast form derived from Yang Chengfu and from his Wu/Hao study
Yang Style : Tian Zhaolin fast set based on Yang Shao Hou’s
Wu Style: Wu Tunan : Fast set based on Wu Chien Chuan and possibly Yang Shao Hou’s
Wu Style: Ma Yueh Liang: Fast set from Wu Chien Chuan.
Yang Style: Chen Pan Ling: Fast way of performing the form. From Yang Shao Hou and Wu Chien Chuan and others.
Yang Style: Nui Chunming: Fast Set of Yang Style.

Some of the above may be modern creations/interpretations, But some have been around for while.
(At the bottom of this post there are some web links I think are worth a read. I’d be interested in people thoughts on them.)


Now I don’t think you need to have fast form to be good at Tai Chi/Tai Chi Fighting/Push hands (Since I’ve only a passing knowledge of Wu Style Fast set so far myself). However I am interested in the origins of Tai Chi and if there is evidence of other faster forms or ways of practicing the form and all the above masters having a version of such practice then personally I want to study it/find out more about it what ever line or master it comes from.


The books by Fu Zhong Wen 'Mastering Yang Style Tai Chi'. Ma Yueh Liang and Wu Ying Hua's Wu Style Books, Also Wu Tunans book and even Chen Pan Ling's tai Chi textbook all reference Tai Chi having been practiced 'fast' and with fa jin.

A big change in Tai Chi was when it went public: The literature is pretty clear and consistant that Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Cheng Fu changed the Publicly taught Tai Chi form at this time.

In 1914 Xi Yui-seng established the Athletic Research Institute in Beijing and Invited Yang Shao-hou, Yang Ch'eng-fu , Wu Chien-ch'uan and Sun Lu Tang among others to teach. From then on T'ai Chi was taught to the public changing the ancient closed door policy where T'ai Chi was only taught privately to very close and well known people within a limited circle known as the tutor disciple relationship.

In the case of Wu Style:
“Wu Chien-ch'uan revised and enriched the art of T'ai Chi Chuan handed down from his father Wu Ch'uan-yu. His development of the slow set led to the creation of the style of T'ai Chi today known as Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan.”

“He omitted some of the repetitions, Fa-jing, stamping and jumping movements to make the form smoother, more structured with continuous steady movements. This form promoted the health aspects of Tai Chi and was more suitable for general practitioners though it still contained all the martial applications and training.”

In the case of yang Style:
“Yang Chen Fu of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan also modified his own Yang style in a similar way at the same time. His brother, Yang Shou-hao's form had a high frame with lively steps alternating between fast and slow movements with hard and crisp Fa-jing.”

"When Chengfu first performed his Art in Shanghai the movements of separating feet and kick with the heel still retained the training method of rapid kicks. Later he changed to slow gradual kicks with the placement of fajin in the kicks being concealed within. Other boxing powers and methods were also transformed to a continuous pace with no breaking of the cadence and fro a hurried to an even pace.

For people interested check out the following links. I'd be keen to see people's responses and thoughts.
Especially the info on Peter Lim’s pages. Does any one have any info on the following

“Yang Shou Chung, Yang Cheng Fu's son, taught this form to his three daughters and some of his close disciples like Mr Yip Tai Tuck and Mr Chu Gin Soon.” ?

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/ycflbox.htm

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/tcspeed.htm

http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/yshsmfr.htm

Said to be form an 'Inside Kung Fu' magazine interview but no issue number or date?
http://www.patrickkellytaiji.com/TEACHE ... wsIKF.html


Regards to you all

[Yuen-Ming]

The problem I have with this argument of “no fast form existed or that it’s just created for people to try and pedal some secret form to get students” is there is too much evidence from too many sources. Also they are from reputable teachers/sources/lines.

Hello velavela,

I guess you have missed when I said that, basically, Yang family had ALSO a fast frame at each generation and even two in a curriculum with the 3rd generation.
But that was beside the point I was trying to make

YM

[Yuen-Ming]

YM , I WAS TOLD that yu zhi jun was 69 years old when he chanllenged me and we met , where did you get " he was 71 years old "from ? or just your fantacy ? plus he chanllenged me so i went , but your thread sounds like i went just to look for someone over 70 years to push hand or fight ,is this your standard way of manipulate things ?

It was kind of you to check the age of a visibly old man who had retired in a while from a life of school teaching, your typical fighter that is

Yu was 71 at the time as he was born in 1931 http://book.bitrich.com/userinfo-1146289.html but even if he was 69 it wouldn't have changed the issue a single bit.

your thread proves again that you are a master of great fantacy . where are the evidences if you are not fantancing?

Do your homeworks, I already gave you some hints, I am not here to pass you new material for your english book

YM

[stephen yan]

Y M wrote :
It was kind of you to check the age of a visibly old man who had retired in a while from a life of school teaching, your typical fighter that is

Yu was 71 at the time as he was born in 1931 http://book.bitrich.com/userinfo-1146289.html but even if he was 69 it wouldn't have changed the issue a single bit.

only when you mentioned yu's age , then , i asked my friend ,yu was born in october 1931 , by the time he invited me to have a PH with him , it was in January 2001, a couple of weeks befroe chinese new year day , so my friend is correct that yu was 69 , not as in your story of 71. but like you said" it wouldn't have changed the issue a single bit", since he was the one chanlleged me he should back up with his skill , otherwise he was just doing that announcement publicly to make him look big as he didn't expect that i was just in china by then.
it is your little mind's performance again to lie about "to check the age of a visibly old man who had retired in a while from a life of school teaching, your typical fighter that is", i don't talk about far , just in nz ,Huang Xingxian (Huang Sheng-Shyan)'s three top students patrick , wei (who spent 3 years living in Huang Xingxian's home), professor ye shen en (whom won east asia heavy weight champion in PH), xue na ying of wu-hao top master (whom called himself as taiji heavenly king) ,some chan style master goerge cui ,and judo instructor robert pointon ,aikido instructor kelvin ect, they were from 30's to 50's ,so when you say" to check the age of a visibly old man " is just a dirty performance. even though above chanllenges all happened 10 years ago ,as a matter of fact ,i have been feeling very defferently in my taiji and PH skill only not long ago ,just few monthes ago one guy called David , same age as me , he is a body builder , a boxer ,wrestler and yang style practioner , he told me he used to live in hk and had acted in jack chan's movie ,now he is runing a health and fittness center in north shore of auckland , and he is a big american guy .he approched me in july and first thing he said to me was " i was told you are unbeatable , i want to find out"which a bit surprised me by his straightness , and i said " no one is unbeatale , it wrong to say that , but let's see". so we started PH in my training room ,and after being throwed out many times and more than half dosen time was his body landed on the floor , he wanted use his wretling to against me , it was same result for him , then he asked if he can use his boxing , i said "fine, i will use taiji lan cai hua rather than using xylhq or yybpz as last two might damage him BY ACCIDENT", he tried ,and than he said he had enough ,as i purposely didn't want to say "finish" first ,because 1, in case he regret late on that he didn't try his best and most , ;2, i tooke that as a good oppertunity to check out how much i improved ,as last one before that was in HE BEI province in china , after a chanllenger lost and required me "if you have guts ,you waite her , i go to get my master here from other county XIN JI" , i waited , his master had same result as him , but it was two years ago , so this time with this American David , i wanted to find out how much i am improved. David became a friend and invited me to perform in his documentary fim , but i don't have time at present. .... so your saying of " me checking age first' " is an ugly lie .

YM WROTE:
Do your homeworks, I already gave you some hints, I am not here to pass you new material for your english book

YM

you are amazing , as i havn't planed to publish english book myself yet , you already know , what a fantacy world you are living in ! yes , one day i will publish my book in english ,but not for along time , so you can relax ,you still have time to cheat . my present book is xylhq , it is half way through , it will have several hundred pages when it is finished , but in chinese first , plus i have already line up with two old masters to learn and record the ancient spear system called "pear flower liu he qiang' before it dies off in china by end of this year , and that spear system was passed down to wang bao village by THE GREAT taoist DONG BIN QIAN who was chen wang ting's teacher . so you relax , and worrying your "hint"(which no value at all but your fantacy) to be used in my english book is just an entertaining and funny fantacy ,you can make me laugh hard , thank you .