The Cult of Saturn

[Patrick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticis ... C_so_below

Satan hello?

[Dmitri]

Satan hello?

Well hello there!



Did you notice there's "hell" in every "hello"?

But, you know what, -- screw all the subtleties and ambiguities, encoded messages and subliminal programming. Start 'em young, I say!



Be afraid! BE VERY, VERY AFRAID!!!!!!

[I-mon]

There's a lot of truth in a lot of conspiracy stuff but the big problem is:

CONSPIRACY WEBSITES GET YOU HIGH!

It's another way of getting addicted to the dopamine rush, like gambling or porn. Watch out for that shit.

[Patrick]

The best part about conspiracy websites is the reasoning. Its on par with the reasoning of kozure okami characters.

[Michael]

Symbols are interesting, to say the least. Continuity of symbology from one culture to the next can be a clear indication of continuity of ideology and institutions from one group to the following generation, regardless of time, geography, name, or even language.

Symbols can offer multiple layers of meaning, usually separated into exoteric for the uninitiated and esoteric for those "in the know". The pseudo-science of astrology and its accompanying symbols, like lions and centaurs, are given exoteric meanings for the masses, such as personality traits and inherent conflicts or affinities with other symbols. However, only a tiny portion of the population was literate when these were first created and the priests understood their true meaning in the actual science of astronomy, which utilized the symbols as convenient pieces of a "time clock in the see of space" (Holy Sea). The priests bridged the gap between the two meanings with stories and fables containing further hidden meanings that were a religion for the masses and a form of communication for the literate who were initiated in the mystery religion.

This is why questions about religious dogma posed to the priests lead to dead ends that must be accepted as "matters of faith." There are no answers to tell the uninitiated, who are meant to be in the dark, or "profane" as the masons call them.

Names of religious figures are given places in the heavens under one culture and language, such as Zeus for the Greeks, and then receive another name and slightly tweaked personality traits and attributes to fit the culture of another group, so he becomes Jupiter for the Romans. The core religion or ideology is preserved by the priests of a ruling class that plan the rise and fall of societies, always benefiting themselves at the expense of the masses and the natural resources of an area. The elites and their priests don't mind moving around because their only allegiance is to power and their particular ideology of superiority. They are not loyal to any people or country other than themselves, similar to a multi-national corporation.



Ever pondered the meaning of these symbols? Here is my paraphrase of an interpretation from Alan Watt of http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com

• The colors of red, white, and blue are common to the US, UK, and French flags and represent revolution.
• The 33 fan blades or white feather-like pieces in the background coincide with the first 33 levels of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, who give special meaning to the number 33 because of the 33 bones in the spine, the conduit for power in the human body.
• E pluribus unum "Out of many, one." Reverse it = One out of many. You might also say "monopoly". Mono = one, Poly = many, and that’s what the United States has been famous for is the creation of monopolies.
• The oak leaves represent conquest. They are not the olive branch. Oak clusters are used for US military officer's insignia at rank of major and lieutenant colonel, or lieutenant commander and commander in the Navy.
• The fasci at the bottom of the symbol are the most obvious example of continuity of symbology. They are well known from the Roman Empire where lictors carried actual fasci, and to a lesser extent the Minoan, who used a double-headed axe. The central axe inside the bundle of sticks is the central power protected by an elite or oligarchy who are bound together. Being bound together, they are much stronger and can not be destroyed as easily as one stick can be broken with a single blow. The idea is forming ranks to protect each other. The Axis (axes) Powers of WW2 were the fascists.
  {end of paraphrase from Alan Watt]

As far as the red phrygian cap, this was used most recently during the French Revolution (1789-99), but goes a long way back to previous iterations of the ancient mysteries, such as Mithraism. The cap was popular during the French Revolution, which was orchestrated by masons and some were caught in Bavaria with their written plans just prior. The king of Bavaria copied the plans and sent them to many other monarchs in Europe as a warning around 1785. The documents are still on display in a museum in Ingolstadt.

The group who had come out in May 1776 and called themselves the Bavarian Illuminati had a front man named Adam Weishaupt, who eventually settled in the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha region of Germany. This is the family that became the rulers of England and changed their name to Windsor.

According to Watt, The Bavarian Illuminati that Weishaupt represented was also called the Bee'an Order, Order of the Bees. The beehive is the symbol of the ancient mystery religion (masons) for a perfect society. "Our ideal state is like a bee-hive. Above the workers we have drones"--The Republic by Plato.

The symbol of the beehive is found extensively in ancient Egypt as well as on one of the famous paintings of the high-level mason Pres. George Washington. Seen here at lower right.



The Washington Monument is the world's largest obelisk, a phallic symbol of the ancient mysteries that represents the creative, masculine power of the sun, called "on" in ancient languages, hence "hard-on", according to Watt.

So what do these symbols mean? They represent ideas from the ancient mystery religion, now called masonry, and demonstrate that this religion is still dominant in society, carrying on from one place to the next.

The United Nations flag contains two of the same symbols, showing the continuity of power and ideology in a recently created institution.



There are 33 sections surrounded by oak leaves on a map of the world, which is the geographic domain of its ambitious conquest (oak leaves are for conquest). The color blue, particularly this shade, represents the Blue Lodge of Freemasonry, which includes the first 3 degrees, who form the facade or portico of freemasonry, according to their former "pope", Albert Pike. He said they are meant to be deceived and are not told the true meaning of their rituals, symbols, etc.

[Michael]

The beehive hats of Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, Pope John XXIII, 1958-63. The top one was donated to the United Nations, according to Alan Watt. The fleur-de-lis is a symbol for a bee.

[Ralteria]

The eyes burn bright
Laced with scars of deceit
Gazing into the void- The Enemy
Betrayed
A dissonant reality

Dig deep beneath your skin
Scratches of denial, of emptiness
inherit unreason
beg for fate
for we have wasted away

Lay low - the unseen lucid
In an age, fragile, and expired
Emancipate

The collective conscious reeks of shadowed dellusion
Existance is fear
A savior from the surrogate Utopia

So weep your blood sincere
Drowning in the deadest sky
Grasping the exhausted ashes of hope
Crowned in absolution
The Eternal Fallen
Suffocate

We are Nil

[Michael]

Pope John Paul XXIII

Catholic Encyclopedia - Tiara

The papal crown, a costly covering for the head, ornamented with precious stones and pearls, which is shaped like a bee-hive, has a small cross at its highest point, and is also equipped with three royal diadems. On account of the three diadems it is sometimes called triregnum. The tiara is a non-liturgical ornament, which, therefore, is only worn for non-liturgical ceremonies, ceremonial procession to church and back, ceremonial papal processions, such as took place upon stated occasions until Rome was occupied by the Piedmontese, and at solemn acts of jurisdiction, as, for example, solemn dogmatic decisions.

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=11551

In modern times, the tiara was a sort of bee-hive shaped head-covering that supported the three crowns of the Popes.

http://www.rosarychurch.net/answers/qa101994a.html

Almost all surviving Triple Tiaras are shaped similarly, in the form of a circular beehive, with its central core made of silver.

http://www.factbook.org/wikipedia/en/p/pa/papal_tiara.html


The "Papal Style of Pope John XXIII"

[Steve James]

I love symbology.

The colors of red, white, and blue are common to the US, UK, and French flags and represent revolution.

Um, yeah, but they don't mean the same thing in the different cultures. For ex., in le Drapeau (i.e., the tricolor French flag), the blue symbolizes helping the poor, the white comes from Joan of Arc's flag and symbolizes the Virgin Mother, and the red represents sacrifice (of some specific martyr that I can't recall). The Union Jack is a mix of three (?) flags. It doesn't represent revolution by any stretch In fact, it's the opposite.

The 33 fan blades or white feather-like pieces in the background coincide with the first 33 levels of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, who give special meaning to the number 33 because of the 33 bones in the spine, the conduit for power in the human body.

Hmm, does the same hold true for the American Rite Freemasons? or York Rite?

E pluribus unum "Out of many, one." Reverse it = One out of many. You might also say "monopoly". Mono = one, Poly = many, and that’s what the United States has been famous for is the creation of monopolies.

The above is bs etymology. The "poly" in monopoly is from the Greek verb "polein" (to sell), not poly meaning many. But, he gave it a good college try

The oak leaves represent conquest. They are not the olive branch. Oak clusters are used for US military officer's insignia at rank of major and lieutenant colonel, or lieutenant commander and commander in the Navy.

Well, actually, there's an olive branch on the left (symbolizing peace) and an oak "branch" on the right (symbolizing strength). Btw, Oak clusters are not the same in military decoration as the oak leaf.

The fasci at the bottom of the symbol are the most obvious example of continuity of symbology. They are well known from the Roman Empire where lictors carried actual fasci, and to a lesser extent the Minoan, who used a double-headed axe. The central axe inside the bundle of sticks is the central power protected by an elite or oligarchy who are bound together. Being bound together, they are much stronger and can not be destroyed as easily as one stick can be broken with a single blow. The idea is forming ranks to protect each other. The Axis (axes) Powers of WW2 were the fascists.

Here he's right. The fascii was the symbol of the Roman Empire, and what Mussolini called his Italian party --which was opposed to the communists. Is Watt arguing the U.S. was fascist when it created the seal or just in the 1880s when they decided on this seal?

Interesting though.

[Michael]

I love symbology.

Cool. This thread should be up your alley.

The 33 fan blades or white feather-like pieces in the background coincide with the first 33 levels of Scottish Rite Freemasonry, who give special meaning to the number 33 because of the 33 bones in the spine, the conduit for power in the human body.

RE: "Hmm, does the same hold true for the American Rite Freemasons? or York Rite?"

In his talks, books, videos, etc., Watt rarely distinguishes details between the various branches such as Scottish Rite, York Rite, etc. These details are not significant compared to the overall philosophy and similarities, which he frequently refers to as "unmerited favor" in a hierarchical system that its members at the lower levels (below 33), understand very little. Another important commonality in all branches of masonry are the murder oaths taken during every ritual as one progresses up the degrees. Every step up the ladder requires a ritual and the swearing of an oath, in the presence of other members, that you will be murdered [by them] if you reveal the secrets, the obvious implicit meaning being that you will murder anyone who transgresses.

Watt said one purpose of every initiation ritual is inviting entities into yourself, which eventually is revealed to the member, who is told that their spirit can be reborn into someone if they achieve a high enough level. It is essentially apotheosis and reincarnation via ritual.

He primarily references what he calls overall "Jubal Freemasonry" originating in Ethiopia at least 60,000 years ago, and what he generally calls "High Masonry", which he describes as those degrees above 33rd, and moreso over 40th degree. He says masons invented the phrase "Life begins at 40" in reference to their degree system, which goes all the way to 360 in four sections of 90, which he names one by one in his book. Although there are small variations in different rites, different countries, different states in the USA, etc., the higher you go, the less variation. About the number 33, I have not heard him go into detail specifically about when that particular idea is taught, at which level.

If you look at this chart of degrees, you see there are fewer steps (and presumably fewer initiation rituals for each degree) in the York Rite to achieve the same overall level in the Scottish Rite.



However, they both lead to the same place and are designed to achieve the same result in the member mason, known as an Accepted Brother or Altered Being once you're high enough, according to Watt.

The oak leaves represent conquest. They are not the olive branch. Oak clusters are used for US military officer's insignia at rank of major and lieutenant colonel, or lieutenant commander and commander in the Navy.

RE: Well, actually, there's an olive branch on the left (symbolizing peace) and an oak "branch" on the right (symbolizing strength). Btw, Oak clusters are not the same in military decoration as the oak leaf.
Well, only the first sentence about conquest was from Watt. I missed that the branch on the left was from an olive tree. Thanks for the info. Know anything more about military oak clusters?

The fasci at the bottom of the symbol are the most obvious example of continuity of symbology. They are well known from the Roman Empire where lictors carried actual fasci, and to a lesser extent the Minoan, who used a double-headed axe. The central axe inside the bundle of sticks is the central power protected by an elite or oligarchy who are bound together. Being bound together, they are much stronger and can not be destroyed as easily as one stick can be broken with a single blow. The idea is forming ranks to protect each other. The Axis (axes) Powers of WW2 were the fascists.

RE: Here he's right. The fascii was the symbol of the Roman Empire, and what Mussolini called his Italian party --which was opposed to the communists. Is Watt arguing the U.S. was fascist when it created the seal or just in the 1880s when they decided on this seal?

Regarding the fascii, it is symbolic evidence of continuity of ideology and method of social control. I have not heard Watt say exactly that the USA is fascist described just like that. What he says is that the oligarchy who was in control of Greece, Rome, Egypt, etc., maintains continuity of ideology via institutions that are preserved like a religion and simply repackaged for each geographic region of conquest. He says they plan their wars, conquests, defeats, and move on to the next region with their physical wealth before the collapse can impact them. He says the rulers are a separate race or creed from the people they rule and have completely different origins, but often pretend to belong to the people being ruled, such as Egyptian rulers were actually pale redheads and blondes, but wore wigs to appear like the people they controlled. He says the evidence of this was found in the tombs.

Watt says the USA was created as part of a long term plan needed for world domination because the British, Dutch, etc., were already well-known in the 16th century as imperialists, so a new country would need to be created in order to transfer the military, financial, and technological power to complete a portion of the plan for the masonic "Great Work", which includes a one-world government. They chose English to be the future one-world language, reconfigured it as an elaborate code for psycho-linguistic influence, changed all the "spell"ings, etc.

Watt says the constitutional congress of 1789 was a closed-door masonic gathering to ratify a document that Franklin had already been showing around France for some time. When he came out of the meeting in Philadelphia, Franklin was asked what kind of government they had come up with and Ben quipped, "A republic. If you can keep it. <wink> <wink>"

Watt says the handover from Britain to the USA was signified esoterically when Kipling came to the US Senate and read "White Man's Burden."

Alan: When you go into the history of John Dee, who had the largest library in England at the time in fact, John Dee was a courtier at the court of Queen Elizabeth I and he was also an advisor to her and an agent when he traveled abroad, and just by coincidence his code number that he signed his letters by was 007.

Dr. Stan: Right.

Alan: He laid out the plan – he was the first person to coin the term "Brytish," (he called it B-r-y-tish Empire), "a Brytish Empire should be formed on the basis of free trade and with favored nation trading status." That’s in the 1500's and he said that countries that would not join this commonwealth would be excluded by taxation, by importation duties and so on, and bypassed in trade; and that was the beginning of this whole free trade business.

Dr. Stan: Of course, it was really a plan to unite the world under British rule, wasn’t it?

Alan: It was and he even said in his writings that even though Britain would start it off, someone would take over in the future. We find that happening in the early 1900's when Kipling came over and he read his poem to the Senate of the U.S., the one about "The White Man’s Burden" and what they would have to do, and that was the handing over the flag as he wrote in his poem: To you, we hand the torch over to you to take over.

Dr. Stan: That was really what it was all about. America then would take over from Britain to bring about the New World Order, the New World religion and the destruction of all freedom. Well, this is Dr. Stan at Radio Liberty. Our guest is Alan Watt, and Alan, pick up the story. Alan was just basically saying this whole thing started with Dr. John Dee back in the Elizabethan time and of course it continued through the British Empire and then Rudyard Kipling had come America and read to the American Congress his poem on "The White Man’s Burden". And of course that’s the whole idea: The white man, we just have to take over control of all these ignorant people throughout the rest of the world and this then inspired this whole idea of bringing about a world government under Anglo-Saxon control.

That’s why whenever we are involved in military operations the British are there and whenever British is involved and an independent military operation like the Falkland Islands. Why, the only country in the world that supported Great Britain was the United States because it is camaraderie going back to the secret societies that of course is working towards this domination of the world and bringing them into a One-World Government under our control, but it will not be a benevolent control, believe me. We are moving rapidly towards a police state in America and they’re doing the same thing in Great Britain and in Canada. You pick up the story.

Alan: Once again, you find this tremendous movement down through the centuries beginning with what they called Rosicrucianism and the underground stream. That’s how they refer to themselves and they also call themselves "The Invisible College" because they did have their own secret societies where they taught their members their part in the agenda.

We find that Newton was a member of the same society and people don’t know about Isaac Newton and that he was primarily into gravity et cetera, but he was a High Cabalist who lived in Cambridge all of his life. He stayed there all his life and when he died they cleaned out his rooms and there were all magical basically equations to do with Cabala. These people have been heavily into the Cabala [Kabala, Kabbalah, Qabala, etc.].

People should realize the Cabala, there are different versions of it but they’re all really tied together. It’s not just a Jewish Cabala. There’s a Greek, there’s an Aramaic, there’s one from India because all the societies in all those countries are really one and the same.

Dr. Stan: What they’re doing is tying into this special wisdom, this wisdom that is out there, when you can communicate with the other dimension and of course this is really a demonic dimension. Certainly we find that many of our great thinkers like Thomas Edison. Where did Edison his ideas? Well, he used to go into mediation. He was a disciple of Madam Blavatsky and I think that we will find this with Tesla, with so many of the people. I did not realize however that Newton was into the occult as well.

Alan: Oh tremendously so and he was also homosexual. It’s in the history books in England and he was bringing a boyfriend over from Italy at one point who was called Favio and Favio reneged on the deal and Newton went to pieces for a while, but for his reward for working for the society – now he also worked for the Royal Institute and that was the beginning of the Masonic Scientific Establishment in England. It was chartered by the British Crown. It was given permission to exist by the British Crown and you had to be a member to join it. Francis Bacon was.

Now the conditions of joining that institution was that if you were married you had to put your wife aside and family and leave money to them but never to see them again. It was an all-male thing only at that time and Bacon did that in fact.

We find that Newton for his work in the Royal Institute – the Royal Society I should say. It’s Royal Society; he was made the head of the British Mint Department. They always give them a big payoff for working in the "Great Work" as they call it.

Dr. Stan: All right. What is that "Great Work?"

Alan: The "Great Work" you’ll find going back for thousands of years is to "perfect that which was left imperfect," and this tongue-in-cheek phrase they use is talking about the recreation of humanity itself, the reshaping of man, and they go by the laws of nature. By the laws of nature they mean science and they believe that they will conquer all nature and reshape it into serving themselves, the elite; and man himself, the workers – we find this goes back to even Plato who wrote about it in the "Republic" where he talked about the Guardian class and the working class he called the "its" and he said these are basic building material. He said we can do the same as we have with domesticated animals. If we want tall people to pick apples, we’ll breed a male and a female and keep interbreeding them until we have tall ones. If we want someone to work down a mine, we can breed them short and squat and muscular for that task; and so basically they were talking about a form of eugenics. Reshaping society to serve what they claim is the elite themselves, the Illumined Ones.

[Michael]

E pluribus unum "Out of many, one." Reverse it = One out of many. You might also say "monopoly". Mono = one, Poly = many, and that’s what the United States has been famous for is the creation of monopolies.

RE: The above is bs etymology. The "poly" in monopoly is from the Greek verb "polein" (to sell), not poly meaning many. But, he gave it a good college try

A slight misunderstanding. Watt wasn't giving the etymology of the word monopoly, he was breaking monopoly into two pieces and using them as a mnemonic to relate to the meaning of the latin phrase E Pluribus Unum.

[Steve James]

These details are not significant compared to the overall philosophy and similarities, which he frequently refers to as "unmerited favor" in a hierarchical system that its members at the lower levels (below 33), understand very little.

The details of the rites are what make them different. You'd have to ask a Mason, not depend on Watt's assumption. Anyway, the Scottish rite is the one with 33 degrees. Other rites don't use them; but, of course, the higher the rank, the more knowledge is assumed. However, Watt makes an assumption about American Masons using 33, but they don't (afaik). AAnyway, when I count the number of whatevers on the Senate Seal, I come up with 32 Check. Mistakes like that mean that somebody's not being careful, and hopefully his entire argument doesn't depend on them.

Know anything more about military oak clusters?

They are attached to medals and ribbons as indications of meritorious service in addition to the award. It's possible to get a DSC (Distinguished Service Cross) with oak leaf clusters, for ex..

Watt wasn't giving the etymology of the word monopoly, he was breaking monopoly into two pieces and using them as a mnemonic to relate to the meaning of the latin phrase E Pluribus Unum.

To his interpretation of the Latin, that is. Ok, but if it's just mnemonics, then it's really just indoctrination. The careless will simply spread his misinformation, unaware that he's making it up. Hey, that's fine, as long as people know. If they accept it as true without knowing or checking, ... that's the problem with our ecudational system today.

I have not heard Watt say exactly that the USA is fascist described just like that.

Well, if he points to the symbol of the Senate and shows its fascist connections, but never says that the US is fascist, then wtf good is his opinion? The fascist symbol, for him, means something else. Afa the Greeks, they didn't use fascii, and neither did the Egyptians --though the did use bundles of wheat or grain as one of the symbols of the Pharaoh's power (often with a sickle in his other hand). But, there was no hatchet in a bundle of sticks.

The original symbol of fascism, in Italy under Benito Mussolini, was the fasces. This is an ancient Roman symbol of power carried by lictors in front of magistrates; a bundle of sticks featuring an axe, indicating the power over life and death. Before the Italian fascists adopted the fasces, the symbol had been used by Italian political organizations of various political ideologies (ranging from socialist to nationalist), called Fascio ("leagues") as a symbol of strength through unity.

[Bill]

Michael, where do you get 33 fan blades? I count 32.

[Michael]

I have not heard Watt say exactly that the USA is fascist described just like that.

RE: Well, if he points to the symbol of the Senate and shows its fascist connections, but never says that the US is fascist, then wtf good is his opinion?
Let me be a little more clear about this. Watt did not interpret the seal of the US senate, but in his book and in some of his talks he has explained some of the items within the seal. I collected his interpretations, paraphrased them, and then added my own. I wrote about Watt's opinion of the USA in my last post and perhaps it's more complex than fascist or non-fascist.



Also, some things are glaringly obvious and need no further emphasis. If a government uses fascii on its seal and in its is lawmaking house (they are on display in the US Congress), how can it not mean that it's fascist? However, long-term plans might not appear fascist at first (early US history), but develop into such an arrangement. For example, now we have "private-public", which is effectively the same as fascist: the merger of state and corporate power.

These details are not significant compared to the overall philosophy and similarities, which he frequently refers to as "unmerited favor" in a hierarchical system that its members at the lower levels (below 33), understand very little.

RE: The details of the rites are what make them different. Anyway, the Scottish rite is the one with 33 degrees. Other rites don't use them; but, of course, the higher the rank, the more knowledge is assumed. However, Watt makes an assumption about American Masons using 33, but they don't (afaik).
We're really getting at the main point of my original post about continuity of symbology being evidence of continuity of ideology, as well as proof of a multi-generational institution to continue the system across multiple geographic regions or political boundaries. The ancient mystery religion is recognizable by its use of astronomy for a clock and although the names of its symbols are changed and tweaked for different cultures as it moves around, it is fundamentally the same even when there appear some minor differences on the surface.

The chart I posted shows a comparison of York and Scottish rites that illustrate this graphically as they both lead to exactly the same place, although there are different numbers of degrees with different names. The most significant thing is where it takes you, it's ultimate purpose, not whether you roll up your left or right pant leg, or if the secret handshake in level two is the lion's paw or some other grip.



There are differences between the rites of branches of masonry in different states, regions, and there are also different languages used, but it's still masonry. Sweden has a slightly different system than Norway, but it's still masonry.

There are also different branches of masonry a person can enter with a different starting point in the degree system, such as Yale's masonic death cult, Skull and Bones, which has elements in its initiation ceremony that come from several degrees. See "The Good Shepherd" (2006). Watt also says sometimes a lodge will initiate some bigwig at a high level, even 32°, and run him through all the degrees of that lodge in a single day.

RE: You'd have to ask a Mason, not depend on Watt's assumption.
I have certainly asked masons various questions over the years and their answers are dependent on circular reasoning, like a Christian trying to explain church dogma. Masons I've questioned either refuse to answer questions or appear very confused about what they're saying.

The vast majority of masons are in the first three degrees (Apprentice, Fellow, Master), which are called the Blue Lodge,



and they know about as much useful information about masonry as a private in the army knows about the the higher levels of the Pentagon. Most of them have joined because masonry advertises very clearly that its members receive unmerited favor based only on obedience and loyalty.

All masons are required to assist each other, they give each other lots of help in business with contracts, discounts, inside info., etc. There's even a special masonic distress signal that has to be obeyed. For example, there have been court cases where the defendant makes the sign by raising his arms in a Y pose and says, "Is their no love for a widow's son?" and the judge, a mason, acquits him. Then they have their own masonic trial later on to satisfy their justice.



Some join because they believe masonry is a kind of self-improvement and benevolent society, and certainly many who believe this are sincere and masons have done many charitable works.



The problem with these masons is they fail to question why a benevolent society needs to have secret, incomprehensible rituals with bloody oaths of murder. People who pursue membership and advancement in the face of such an obvious contradiction can not be relied upon to explain themselves and it is obvious that most masons have no idea what they're really involved with, although they are not nefarious people. They have unwittingly joined a complex and secretive organization that is nefarious at its higher levels and in its history.

I compare low-level masons to a patriotic person joining the CIA, believing in what they're doing because they have limited knowledge of the organization due to a multi-tier system of access to information, multiple levels of secrecy and access, as well as physical compartmentalization of where they work and what they are allowed to see, and they have no idea the truth of the purpose of who they work for. See the recent interview on Russia Today of former CIA agent John Kiriakou, who blew the whistle on torture and is now going to jail. Now he knows, even though for 18 years he believed the contrary.

One purpose of the hierarchical degree system is to gradually draw someone into the organization so that they become more invested in it ideologically and value the advantages it gives them in finding jobs, getting loans, etc. They have a much greater incentive not to question than to express normal curiosity, and all the expected questions have pre-prepared answers from the lodge's leaders. They can help the lower mason rationalize, just like a good priest knows how to satisfy the psychological needs and emotions of a parishioner without giving satisfactory answers at an intellectual level.

Masonry is an extremely deceptive religion, which is explained clearly by the former leader of masonry in the second half of the 19th century, Albert Pike, who was quite an infamous character in US history. There's a statue of him across the street from the Supreme Court of the USA.



In one of the most significant and widely used masonic books, Morals and Dogma, Pike says that masonry is a religion and its members below 30° are to be deceived, that they make up only a facade or portico on the exterior of masonry. In other words, they are the front group in a secret society whose true purpose is never advertised to the public.



So Steve, after asking masons questions and wasting time, I just went to Albert Pike's book to find answers, as did Alan Watt, but he did extensive studying over many years. It's not assumptions, it's from masonic reference works.

Anyway, when I count the number of whatevers on the Senate Seal, I come up with 32 Check. Mistakes like that mean that somebody's not being careful, and hopefully his entire argument doesn't depend on them.

Michael, where do you get 33 fan blades? I count 32.

Right you are! Entirely my mistake and this will probably cost me my Alex Jones secret decoder ring.

An aside since we mentioned Egypt earlier, Watt says the word senate comes from the Egyptian word for chessboard.

[Steve James]

If a government uses fascii on its seal and in its is lawmaking house (they are on display in the US Congress), how can it not mean that it's fascist?

Whoa, so you're saying that the U.S. is fascist? Somehow, you need to distinguish Watt's ideas from your own. You're not asking me, are you? It's too easy to compare slavery and the later Jim Crow laws to the Nuremburg laws. However, the question is whether the US is fascist now, and if so how are the symbols on the seals relevant.

Symbols are chosen because they have meaning or are given meaning, and in fact what makes them "symbols" and not "signs" is that they can have many interpretations. I don't believe that the symbols on the US seals of today mean what they did before or are continuations of some hidden political message.

We're really getting at the main point of my original post about continuity of symbology being evidence of continuity of ideology, as well as proof of a multi-generational institution to continue the system across multiple geographic regions or political boundaries.

Ok, but your thesis contains absolutely no proof, only descriptive assertions. Iow, no, the guys who made the fasces the symbol of Rome (not Egypt or Greece or Babylon or Assyria or Persia) did not put the fasces on the Senate seal and the others you place above. They used the fasces, just like they used the eagle, the oak leaves, the acorns, the arrows, etc. The UK doesn't use fasces, does it? What about France? If you want to do good research, look for where your theory doesn't work.

The chart I posted shows a comparison of York and Scottish rites that illustrate this graphically as they both lead to exactly the same place, although there are different numbers of degrees with different names.

Yeah, they lead to the same place. So, the number 33 isn't important, and shouldn't have been part of your argument. If the material isn't checked, it means that you can't depend on the author's information. You have to check for yourself. Moreover, it seems more than obvious that no Masonic order is going to claim that it is higher than another or that members of one can't reach the levels of another --even if they believed that it were true.

Masonry is an extremely deceptive religion, which is explained clearly by the former leader of masonry in the second half of the 19th century, Albert Pike...

The "explained clearly" part of the above is extremely dubious. Masonry is not a religion, any more that belonging to the Elks or Rotary Club. It's a fraternity. In 19th century America, there were loads of them. Afa Mr. Pike, are you referring to his infamy as a KKK leader, an Indian killer or a Mason? Shucks, if it had been around Washington, Jefferson, Jackson and lots of others would have belonged. Of course, if that's your logic, then you must believe that the Constitution is an evil document constructed by deceptive Masons.

I just went to Albert Pike's book to find answers, as did Alan Watt, but he did extensive studying over many years. It's not assumptions, it's from masonic reference works.

Well, look through and find me that Pike quote: http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm
Please don't post pages of text, but I'm not going to read 600+ pages to find out whether you or Watt are correct.

Yeah, "32" ain't "33" --:)