Empty force fail

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Re: Empty force fail

Postby klonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:35 am

Hmmmf. Although... I rather liked my original idea better. I think the Chinese is "night soil" but everyone I know has had a flush toilet for years. Missed opportunity, I suppose.
Last edited by klonk on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby RobP2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:54 am

windwalker wrote:t
I have long since respected much of their work (Systema), even though from what little I've heard about it, it seems to be based on a different idea.
people talk of being warriors, fighters, ect....but when presented with a military unit that uses some of what seem to be
from my POV the same ideas its not held to the same standards as some of the work shown by the Chinese masters, why is that?


Because in Systema it isn't "empty force"

No contact work is an aspect of training - but the top guys say it is something you can rely on maybe 50% of the time. And who wants to go into battle with a gun firing 50% blanks?
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:55 am

I like the bucket of water test :) Any takers that would put the results on video?
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:04 am

Because in Systema it isn't "empty force"
No contact work is an aspect of training - but the top guys say it is something you can rely on maybe 50% of the time. And who wants to go into battle with a gun firing 50% blanks?


never said it was, what I did say is that it appears to have some similar effects, and is talked about in the same way.
you statement doesnt make much sense to me, as someone who was in the military, why would anyone train on something that is known only to work 50% of the time.
If some one asked me about it, just from the clips posted Ive seen over the years, I would have to say like the chinese systems, much of it is based on what ever one chooses to call it.


50% of the time one ends up getting shot? due to training methods that are known only to work 50%. :'(
as I've stated I respect the work they do, and understand it from my POV, I would hazard a guess that there is more commonality in the why and how it works then not.
my point was/is, that its easy to mock others, for what ever reason but when presented with people who do use these types of ideas in life and death situations it seems like its given
a pass on things that normally would be questioned.

regarding EF, kong jin, what ever, weather touched or not, the process by which it works is the same IME. Listening to the clip on "beyond the physical" it paralleled much of what Chinese masters say using the same ideas.
can you talk about the 50% of the time where it does work and why?
if not I can understand ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:06 am

The problem is that anyone can say that anything looks like anything. There are systema folks here; do they call what Ryabko does "empty force"? If they do, the question becomes "what do they mean?" If they agree with the "empty force" shown in the other videos, then that's settled. If, otoh, "empty force" is simply an application of physics, then there's no problem in terms of belief, but there's the fact that physics can be measured and explained.

There's no such thing as an "empty force" in physics. Force, by definition, is something that causes an object to change direction or velocity; it can't be "empty" or zero and still cause change. Well, that just means that it isn't a "force"; creating "emptiness" can obviously cause change. That is what we see in many of the demonstrations. It's like watching what happens when someone thinks an object he tries to move is lighter (or heavier) than he expects.

There are also too many types of examples to make any sense of at all. The guy in the "empty force fail" video is one. If there were a military use for that type of "force," every military in the world (especially the Chinese) would be experts at it. If there is/was a technique to allow a soldier to make the enemy drop their weapons using no touch (excluding greater firepower, of course), it'd soon replace hand to hand combat. Actually, it has been discussed. Ever see "The Men who Stare at Goats"?

I'm at a loss with claims that these techniques work only on some students. Any "force" in nature is universal.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby brer_momonga on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:15 am

empty force ;)

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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:26 am

Steve James wrote:The problem is that anyone can say that anything looks like anything. There are systema folks here; do they call what Ryabko does "empty force"? If they do, the question becomes "what do they mean?" If they agree with the "empty force" shown in the other videos, then that's settled. If, otoh, "empty force" is simply an application of physics, then there's no problem in terms of belief, but there's the fact that physics can be measured and explained.


doesnt matter what its called only matters what they can do, and weather it was felt by them, or weather its faked, compliant students, cult, ect.

IMO much of it can be explained by physics and human psychology / physiology. The fact remains that apparently they do use and train with ideas that are based on something that seems to work in a different way then what would be expected, just as the Chinese.

Although the existence of dark matter is generally accepted by the mainstream scientific community, there is no generally agreed direct detection of it. Other theories, including MOND and TeVeS, are some alternative theories of gravity proposed to try to explain the anomalies for which dark matter is intended to account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:35 am

doesnt matter what its called only matters what they can do, and weather it was felt by them, or weather its faked, compliant students, cult, ect.


It matters whether what they do is the same. Anyone can simply fall down or go paralytic when someone points at them. Doesn't prove anything. And, my point was that so many different examples have been used as illustrations that it's impossible to say Whether they are the same or different.

Although the existence of dark matter is generally accepted by the mainstream scientific community, there is no generally agreed direct detection of it.


Right, and sure as feces what these demonstrations have not shown is dark matter. Though, you should probably be talking about dark energy. At any rate, saying that something can be explained is just talk. Explaining is explaining. Because someone else can not explain something does not prove the existence of what someone else is talking about.

If you find a physicist who thinks that empty force is dark matter, let us know. Otherwise, I'd say it's simply a product of the ego.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:49 am

There's no such thing as an "empty force" in physics. Force, by definition, is something that causes an object to change direction or velocity; it can't be "empty" or zero and still cause change. Well, that just means that it isn't a "force"; creating "emptiness" can obviously cause change. That is what we see in many of the demonstrations. It's like watching what happens when someone thinks an object he tries to move is lighter (or heavier) than he expects.

There are also too many types of examples to make any sense of at all. The guy in the "empty force fail" video is one. If there were a military use for that type of "force," every military in the world (especially the Chinese) would be experts at it. If there is/was a technique to allow a soldier to make the enemy drop their weapons using no touch (excluding greater firepower, of course), it'd soon replace hand to hand combat. Actually, it has been discussed. Ever see "The Men who Stare at Goats"?


The Meaning of Force
A force is a push or pull upon an object resulting from the object's interaction with another object. Whenever there is an interaction between two objects, there is a force upon each of the objects. When the interaction ceases, the two objects no longer experience the force. Forces only exist as a result of an interaction.
For simplicity sake, all forces (interactions) between objects can be placed into two broad categories:
contact forces, and forces resulting from action-at-a-distance


who knew :-\ at a distance
dosnt say what the interaction as to be, only that what ever it is has to interact.

kong jin, systema, aiki ect: before any of this was public, it didnt exist and wasnt real?

again not proving or disproving, I posted some videos showing something in use that most would question, used by those that
train it, in life or death situations. look at the whole video.
it was stated that it only works 50% of the time, pretty good actually. the question should be what works 50% of the time?
so again, we or you seem to be giving the systema a pass, but the others not? I'm I missing something here?

Disclaimer: not out to prove or disprove, only contrasting what many say, with what is shown.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:58 am

Steve James wrote:
doesnt matter what its called only matters what they can do, and weather it was felt by them, or weather its faked, compliant students, cult, ect.
If you find a physicist who thinks that empty force is dark matter, let us know. Otherwise, I'd say it's simply a product of the ego.


well I dunno, what to say.

I didnt call it dark matter, its from what I posted. you should read it again.

yes, exactly it only matters what one can do and or felt.
we totally agree on this.

Im not the one questioning it, I respect others views and experiences
for me, much if not all things in many of videos shown is a reality through direct experience.
I've tried to share some thoughts on my own experiences, and provide some examples
over a wide range of people who use and do the same things, to include apparently
military units.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:58 am

Btw, re "dark energy," we only know about it because we can physically measure its effect. That is, we know that universe is expanding, so there must be something that is counter-acting the "force" of gravity. By measuring the expansion, we can calculate how much energy would be needed to cause it. We just don't have a way (yet) to measure that energy directly. We can, however, measure gravity.

So, for ex., if a 200lb guy rushes at you, but you hold up your hand and he stops without you touching him, we can easily measure the force it took to stop him. What we can't measure is the "empty force" generated by your hand. Well, of course, the student can say "I just couldn't move" and you might say "See." So, then, if ya'll say so, fine. If, otoh, it doesn't work on every 200lb rusher, that's evidence of what it wasn't. The force of gravity works 100% of the time. The power of suggestion is variable.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby RobP2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:02 am

windwalker wrote:never said it was, what I did say is that it appears to have some similar effects, and is talked about in the same way.
you statement doesnt make much sense to me, as someone who was in the military, why would anyone train on something that is known only to work 50% of the time.
If some one asked me about it, just from the clips posted Ive seen over the years, I would have to say like the chinese systems, much of it is based on what ever one chooses to call it.


Because it is an aspect of inter-personal relationships that can be used in some situations and is an adjunct to overall combat / conflict skills. Some others seem to present is as a combat skill in and of itself - hence the OP clip
Last edited by RobP2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:03 am

we can easily measure the force it took to stop him


wow,,,okay I bite,,,
in my hand that I held up was gun 8-) . did it stop his force, or did he stop it?
what would we measure?

kinda my point, look at the vides if it matters, and listen to what the people say, both in Chinese and Russian.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby RobP2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:04 am

windwalker wrote:
we can easily measure the force it took to stop him


wow,,,okay I bite,,,
in my hand that I held up was gun 8-) . did it stop his force, or did he stop it?
what would we measure?

kinda my point, look at the vides if it matters, and listen to what the people say, both in Chinese and Russian.


Like Steve said - the power of suggestion is variable. But how come empty force masters don't call it Suggestive Power?
Last edited by RobP2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Empty force fail

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:07 am

Ha, "action at a distance" = gravity, magnetism, radiation (strong and weak nuclear forces" ... but not anything that you're talking about in TCMA. Only the words are the same.

I didnt call it dark matter, its from what I posted. you should read it again.


No, you just posted it. If it doesn't reflect your opinion, don't waste the reader's time.

Afa military units, unless you served in one that used them ... or someone who's served has had it used on them in combat, it's just bull. Show me all the Spetnatz vids you like. If it existed, the Chinese would have been using it for a thousand years.

There's really no need to debate. Some of it is just fake. It's not about the existence of qi. It's about the existence of "empty force." It will not stop or deflect a drop of water, let alone a bucket. That's why this is only an esoteric moot discussion of a dubious subject.
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