The Russians are coming.

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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:44 pm

I believe the whole reason why governments fear terrorists is because terrorists challenge government's authority and for governments to exist and stay in power they can't have ordinary citizens questioning or challenging them.

It's not only governments who fear ISIS, it's a lot of the people who live in areas they now control.

Essentially I am an anarchist at heart so I mistrust the governments of Russia and the PRC as much as the U.S.'s. I have no doubt the U.S. will be involved in a new war within a year of the election.

To me, anarchy looks like a constant series of battles among people without a majority of power and the struggle for survival at the level of tribal warfare becomes the focus for life, whereas in a more structured society the struggle for survival is less violent. Nation states can provide stability, security, and secular institutions that protect rights, etc., I think it's well known. Do we have less net violence or do we just export it in foreign wars and drone attacks? I think the statistics show it's less net violence, so no anarchy for me.

As far as mistrust of governments, you can consider how to deal with that problem and also what are the alternatives for society. One way to deal with the problem is by holding the authority accountable the same as a service provider, through competition. During the previous years when the USA was the dominant or sole super power, we've had an economic decline at home as well as fruitless wars in the Middle East that also cost us money, all while our infrastructure was declining in its current state and not being advanced either. In a world where there are multiple super powers, there is a kind of accountability through competition that might prevent the hubris seen since the fall of the USSR. Just a thought.
Michael

 

Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:13 pm

Only the rich, the banks and the oil companies benefit from war.

You're entitled to your opinion but you will never convince me that war is ever the answer.

Tell that to all the innocent civilians who have died in the past week's air strikes how the escalation of forces is benefiting them.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... ozens.html
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:14 pm

Steve James wrote:Re: Assad, Amnesty International has reported human rights abuses done by the gov't since the "Arab Spring" of 2010-11. The organization also notes atrocities committed by IS and others. In any case, these abuses are considered the main reasons for the refugee crisis. Clearly, Assad's regime is striking back at the rebels. However, the rebels are the ones who stay and fight, and Assad attacks them where they are. So, the bombs (barrels or not) are falling on civilian non-combatants. I.e., Assad's own people. And this was happening before anyone said anything about IS. In fact, the Republican nominees for president in the last two elections proposed that we arm the rebels or take direct military action. It was/is a strategy, not a conspiracy. Putin wants to help Assad; that's not a conspiracy. One can disagree whether it is right or wrong. However, imo, to support Putin because he's acting against the US --or to support Obama because he's acting against Putin --is just more Cold War ideological rhetoric. It's not a fight between the white hats and the blacks hats.


Steve said it best for me.

I am off to enjoy my Halloween weekend now.

Happy Halloween everybody!
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:52 pm

grzegorz wrote:You're entitled to your opinion but you will never convince me that war is ever the answer.

Iraq was more stable before the two wars, following which the USA dismissed the Iraq army and failed to train the new one and the police properly, which was impossible for an occupying army to do, allowing for the development of ISIS. So I think the war on Iraq was the wrong answer.

Tell that to all the innocent civilians who have died in the past week's air strikes how the escalation of forces is benefiting them.

Now that a large group of terrorists has been funded as mercenaries, transported to Iraq and Syria, and supplied, and the oil they have stolen is being illegally purchased providing them with significant resourrces, and these terrorists are murdering lots of civilians, then what are the available solutions to this problem?
Michael

 

Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:55 pm

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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:06 am

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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:12 am

Steve James wrote:It's not a fight between the white hats and the blacks hats.


I think this is also clear from the successful collaboration between Lavrov and Kerry over the chemical weapons issue and also in Russia's invitation to the USA coalition to join the Russian communications center in Iraq, which Russia set up in advance of the aerial bombing campaign of ISIS. Of course the USA did not accept the invitation because they have some ideological problems about doing anything to support Assad, even though their policy has changed on the regime change topic.

About the barrel bombs, that's just a buzzword or catchphrase. The underlying accusation is that the Syrian Army is ordered by Assad to use indiscriminate weapons that do maximum damage to civilians, a continuation of the unproven accusation that Assad or the Syrian Army is responsible for the Ghouta gas attack of August 2013. According to Assad, it's a nonsensical statement because his army is not doing indiscriminate bombing, and yes there are always civilian casualties in war and it can't be avoided.

The link Greg posted is probably the first mainstream USA confirmation that the Syrian "regime" is maintaining the institutions of the state that provide services and not just indiscriminately bombing civilians.
Michael

 

Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:48 am

Michael wrote:About the barrel bombs, that's just a buzzword or catchphrase. The underlying accusation is that the Syrian Army is ordered by Assad to use indiscriminate weapons that do maximum damage to civilians, a continuation of the unproven accusation that Assad or the Syrian Army is responsible for the Ghouta gas attack of August 2013. According to Assad, it's a nonsensical statement because his army is not doing indiscriminate bombing, and yes there are always civilian casualties in war and it can't be avoided.


So it's not happening but if it is happening (the slaughter of civilians) it's okay as long as it's not the USA.

Sorry, I don't think you're convincing anyone who doesn't already agree with you. Your argument seems to be that the USA is bad when it kills civilians but when when Assad or the Russians do it then it's for the greater good. Somehow if the US was barrel bombing civilians I think your opinion would be different concerning that act.

My argument is that it's all wrong, just as blowing up an airliner full of Russians trying to fly back from holiday in Egypt. Voilence begets voilence and my sympathies go out to the Russians and Ukrainians who were onboard and their families as well as to all the innocent Syrian civilians who have been killed in this conflict. A faction of IS in Egypt has claimed responsibility in revenge for the Russians bombing Syria. I suppose we all have to bomb Egypt and send in special forces for another decade.

I remained unconvinced and really have nothing more to add. Some people believe war is the answer in the Middle East and some of us do not.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:56 am

grzegorz wrote:So it's not happening but if it is happening (the slaughter of civilians) it's okay as long as it's not the USA.

No, it's not okay. Assad says that his country could not have stayed together after more than four years if he were indiscriminately bombing civilians. What do you think about that?

Your argument seems to be that the USA is bad when it kills civilians but when when Assad or the Russians do it then it's for the greater good.

No, that's not my opinion at all. My opinion is that the USA/UK/NATO invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, bombed Libya, and are supporting jihadists against Syria and that Syria is fighting in self-defense and Russia is helping them, which the USA coalition sort of claimed they were doing for a year, but were not at all effective except for arming groups they labeled as not terrorists.

Somehow if the US was barrel bombing civilians I think your opinion would be different concerning that act.

Why do you think that? I've never said anything that agrees with this. What's a barrel bomb? What makes it different from other bombs? Did you ever see a barrel bomb when you were in the military? Can you find any technical source to validate the existence of barrel bombs?

My argument is that it's all wrong, just as blowing up an airliner full of Russians trying to fly back from holiday in Egypt. Voilence begets voilence and my sympathies go out to the Russians and Ukrainians who were onboard and their families as well as to all the innocent Syrian civilians who have been killed in this conflict. A faction of IS in Egypt has claimed responsibility in revenge for the Russians bombing Syria. I suppose we all have to bomb Egypt and send in special forces for another decade.

And where do you think IS got the weapons to shoot down an airliner? Doesn't this demonstrate ISIS are a threat to just about anyone in the region and should be dealt with? So since you're against any war, how do you handle a group that's shooting down civilian airliners?

I remained unconvinced and really have nothing more to add. Some people believe war is the answer in the Middle East and some of us do not.
[/quote]
Unconvinced of what? What solutions are available to deal with ISIS? What solutions are there for shooting down civilian passenger jets? What should the Syrian government do about the war that's going on?
Michael

 

Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby amor on Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:39 pm

Michael wrote:No, it's not okay. Assad says that his country could not have stayed together after more than four years if he were indiscriminately bombing civilians. What do you think about that?
.


That's a pretty good point actually, never occurred to me that if Assad was really barrel bombing indiscriminately then the civil war in Syria would have most probably ended by now and the Russians wouldn't have needed to go in.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:41 pm

But at what costs?



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fciZrDUSZlI

If you guys approve of this happening at the hands of government obviously we have some pretty big differences in how we think.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:43 pm

If barrel bombing civilians bombing is fine with you then how about shooting down a Russian jetliner?

As far as U.S. foreign policy Mike you're preaching to the choir. But your war mongering sounds the same to me as the war mongering of the RNC the only difference is in the opinion of who is wearing the black hat and who is wearing the white hat.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:52 pm

Here's another video of documentation. I'm not sure why you want me to Google these for you but here it is.



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nkBtoFczp00

No, there is not necessarily a difference between a barrel bomb or a missile from the Russian navy landing in Iran. Words like nazi, terrorist or barrel bomb do not have an emotional response for me it's just a word to describe something so we are all on the same page. But it could be argued that dropping one of these indiscriminately on Sunni neighborhoods is akin to shooting into crowd.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:29 pm

amor wrote:
Michael wrote:No, it's not okay. Assad says that his country could not have stayed together after more than four years if he were indiscriminately bombing civilians. What do you think about that?
.


That's a pretty good point actually, never occurred to me that if Assad was really barrel bombing indiscriminately then the civil war in Syria would have most probably ended by now and the Russians wouldn't have needed to go in.

Check out the Assad interviews I posted on the previous page. He answers everything he's asked.
Michael

 

Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:38 pm

grzegorz wrote:But at what costs?



http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fciZrDUSZlI

If you guys approve of this happening at the hands of government obviously we have some pretty big differences in how we think.

If you disapprove, then what do you think the Syrian government should do about the armies attacking it?
Michael

 

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