The Russians are coming.

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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:49 pm

By the way, I'm not defensive excuse the caps. I dislike Putin too but war is rarely the answer, especially with the Russians.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:02 pm

@Michael, I dunno. I'm sure I don't see the US invading anyone --especially on the claim of historical sovereignty. In fact, I thought that was what defined the Nazis. First it was the Sudatenland, then Poland --and everything was hunky dory until they invaded the USSR.

But, anyway, comparing the US/UK/EU in this situation to Nazi aggressors is an exaggeration/ Jmo.

@Greg, nobody's accusing you of liking Putin. Afa war rarely being the answer, it's (according to the Ukrainian sources) 15,000 "Russian" troops that are now in the Crimea. The Ukrainian military is warning of a war. That's the problem. Hey, I'm not against giving up the Crimea or the whole shebang. It's what the people there think that matters.

I agree that leaving the region to its own devices without outside interference would be best. But, one set of invaders is no better than another.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:11 pm

Right, I'm just saying that the caps were for emphasis and nothing more.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:50 pm

Steve James wrote:But, anyway, comparing the US/UK/EU in this situation to Nazi aggressors is an exaggeration/ Jmo.

Yup, I hear you on that. I usually ignore Nazi comparisons unless there are specifics given, so no, I don't equate these two.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Interloper on Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:35 pm

wiesiek wrote:hmm,
it basically already happened /west on russians borders/, Poland was like Ukraine 30y.a., well, almost
End of the game will be when Russia became UE member :D
beginning of the new one, I mean :-\


Where my grandparents lived in western Ukraine (during the Russian Empire under Tsar Nicolas II), one day they would be living in Ukraine, the next day it would be Poland... then Ukraine again, even though their house did not move.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:30 pm

Michael, you just posted a bunch of Communist propaganda. The fact is, the US is trying to distance itself from this kind of thing (see Syria, and how that would have been handled under Bush, shrub, or other Neocons). How many righteous revolutions have followed the laws of their state?

You are pretty radical, and I am too, in some of my opinions. But, do you really think Putin has the best intentions for the people of the Ukraine, who have clearly shown that they prefer a EU lifestyle over that of the new Kremlin (that is what it is, and to ignore Putin's background is just dumb).
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:16 pm

Ian, I think the US has shown two management styles since the end of the Cold War: one is military intervention under Bush 41 and Bush 43 with the injustifiable wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the other management style is color revolutions, the use of social media and Wikileaks, drones, spec ops, and everything except "boots on the ground". I don't see the US distancing itself at all from wrongly and aggressively interfering in the internal affairs of a long list of countries, and that has been the case for about a hundred years.

The US foreign policy since the war with Spain has been aggressive. Certainly not in all cases, but in too many. I think the history is undeniable, especially since Pres. Wilson. If that's not perfectly obvious, examine since WW2. Completely aggressive, illegal, immoral, etc.

I don't have very much to go on about Putin's intentions for Ukraine, but I think it's likely the same as his intentions for the people of Russia, and I think those intentions are more benevolent than the intentions of the Anglo-American Establishment. Emphasis on "more benevolent" as a relative term. This doesn't make Putin a good guy; they're all pretty bad, but it was Putin and his Foreign Minister Lavrov who recently prevented an escalation of the war in Syria despite US Sec. of State Kerry's obvious desire to increase hostilities there on any pretext imaginable.

Do you really think the people of Ukraine prefer taking loans from the IMF instead of the Kremlin? The IMF is the #1 global institution for austerity and its accompany misery and suffering plaguing the world. They are demanding an end to natural gas subsidies as one of the first conditions of the loans. Who offered a better deal there, Kremlin or IMF? If you are not familiar with IMF loans, they are the architects of austerity in Greece, Argentina, and many other countries. See Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins and Best Democracy Money Can Buy US edition, by Greg Palast. They explain the 100+ conditionalities of an IMF loan as well as the scheme of economic takeover that goes along with it.

It surprises me that anyone would somehow interpret this situation as the Russians being at fault and that the US is in a more correct position to determine the outcome. Ukraine is Russia's neighbor and its NATO that's been expanding into Eastern Europe for the past 20 years. Now Russia doesn't want an Anglo-American color revolution and they're at fault?

BTW, I ♥ Putin. lol

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Last edited by Michael on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:35 pm

Michael,

No hard feelings, and I would love to meet up someday. But, I think it is unfair to blame things that are systemic on the current president. I do take issue with a ton of stuff going on right now. But, collateral damage from drones, national deficit, and human rights have all been going the right way under Obama. We have a sadly entrenched system here, but if we keep this up, we could make some real strides here.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:54 pm

Ian,

It would be great to meet up! :)

I didn't blame anything on Pres. Obama. I think there are several levels of entrenched management above him. I credit him for finally going along with negotiations for Syria and averting war. If any of the other likely contenders had been in office, we'd probably have another war with Syria and possibly Iran right now.

I would love to make strides with all the good things coming from the Obama Administration.

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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:35 am

Russian forces are surrounding Ukrainian bases and demanding the Ukrainians to surrender and hand over their weapons.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/02/world/eur ... homepage-t
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:51 am

I don't know why Americans think this is the US vs Russia, when Ukraine wants to join the EU which has nothing to do with the US in fact was formed so they can break away from the influence of US. But is what it is. A lot of Americans want to believe the CIA was behind the Solidarity movement, they weren't. The Poles rose up against the communists on their own.
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:08 pm

Speaking of Putin's Russia, Pussy Riot appeared on the Colbert Report and it made for one of his best shows ever.

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertnat ... riot-pt--1

http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertnat ... riot-pt--2
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby gzregorz on Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:14 pm

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Here's the story on euronews too, with video footage.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/02/russ ... urrounded/
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby chud on Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:14 pm

Ian Cipperly wrote:Europe and most of the world has been complaining forever about America sticking our beak in all the time. Now that we finally have a POTUS who has taken our combat troops out of Iraq and seems poised to do so in Afganistan, and who also didn't fire rockets into Syria...


The problem with President Obama and the Syria situation is that he talked tough and then did nothing (no military response).
I was in favor of staying out of Syria btw, but when Obama gave the impression that he was gonna do something and then backed off he lost respect as a leader.
That is why Putin is sending troops and flying helicopters into Ukraine with no concern about a US response; he is not afraid of Obama at all (or Europe for that matter).
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Re: The Russians are coming.

Postby grzegorz on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:39 pm

I don't think any Russian leader has ever feared the US. The Russians didn't fear Napoleon, didn't fear Hitler and didn't fear Mao, I somehow doubt that they are going to start feeling foreign leaders now.

Also the fact is it was congress that wanted nothing to do with Syria. Reagan pulled out of Lebanon, W closed the US base in Saudi, Bush stopped at the Iraqi border and Clinton pulled out of Somalia, it's not uncommon for the US back down when the going gets tough.

Would you really want to risk nuclear war over the Crimea?
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