Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

[RobP2]

Since I've never seen or experienced it myself, me believing in it would not prove or disprove its existence. Belief in something does not make it true.

Thanks for explaining, I'd never thought of that

I was trying to establish a starting point for discussion

[D_Glenn]

And btw D-Glenn , Concept is Gainian. Not Yinian.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

Thanks for catching that. But I should've actually wrote 意境 'Yijing', since in the Martial Arts there isn't really any concrete concepts, so the concepts are more creative and conceptual and make use one's imagination (想像力 xiangxiangli), as the opponent is going to be playing a major part in what actually gets painted on the canvas, in the end.

.

[windwalker]

@d glenn,

I often find your post very informative and interesting to read.
you write many thins about qi, and CMA I would hope that you might help to clarify
some ideas and concepts.

@ rob2p

have viewed your work for many yrs, all good stuff. I once mentioned
the art 'systema" from what I have seen follows or echoes much of the work that
we do/did in china. for my students that leave for other places I mentioned to them that
they might seek out a teacher of this to help them farther their practices.

it might be interesting in discussing what is different in the way of explanations
from the chinese models used.

[D_Glenn]

There is another translation for 凌空勁 which is Spatial Force.

Something that is floating in the sky/ air, or is in space, and there is also an empty space or air in-between two people or creatures. When you were a kid and you and your friends cornered a house or stray cat and it puffs itself up and makes an insane grumbling, hissing sound. That's a palpable force that is traveling through the empty space between you and the cat.

Like Louis Swaim wrote: "It's kind of like psyching out the opponent to disarm him mentally/emotionally.".

With the cat, there is a playfulness to it, so one's 'Weiqi' is open to the effect. Getting it to work in an actual fight, where the opponent's 'Weiqi' (Defensive Energy) is naturally pulled inside, is different. The video of Wang Peisheng throwing the guy all over and making him feel threatened and not knowing what was coming next in the confrontation, and only then does WPS use the 'Ha' sound to affect him, is an example of 凌空勁 as he's able to psyche him out despite the state of the guy's 'Defenses'. But since it's because he was first introduced to Wang's power, and it's something he then knew, it's still just a game, but compared to the other videos, at least it's done/ demonstrated in the right context, which is why WPS did the demo in the first place. Of course people still didn't understand what they were seeing.

You wrote:

但學者可不必深求。僅作遊戲觀可耳
My translation is '' not something you need to strive for, take it as some form of game ''

And since the chances of it working against a random attack/assault is slim to none, who presumably doesn't know what you're capable of, it's not relied upon, or sought after.

.

[Michael]

It is possible to attack someone without touching them and by attack I mean completely neutralise, paralyze, fuck up, whatever, immediately, and more effective than a physical attack. I've experienced it and it was not a demo situation, it was an attack. Not a common skill and no one with the skill would ever advertise it or teach it openly for reasons that should be obvious.

[windwalker]

It is possible to attack someone without touching them and by attack I mean completely neutralise, paralyze, fuck up, whatever, immediately, and more effective than a physical attack. I've experienced it and it was not a demo situation, it was an attack. Not a common skill and no one with the skill would ever advertise it or teach it openly for reasons that should be obvious.

@michael,

care to share some thoughts on what or how you feel its done?
with my own teacher, we had a student who said he would resist what ever one wants to call it, he passed out. As I've mentioned the effect tends to make people sick. depending on level and
intent of practitioner.

[amor]

It is possible to attack someone without touching them and by attack I mean completely neutralise, paralyze, fuck up, whatever, immediately, and more effective than a physical attack. I've experienced it and it was not a demo situation, it was an attack. Not a common skill and no one with the skill would ever advertise it or teach it openly for reasons that should be obvious.

Do you possess these skills yourself and is the one who attacked you the same person who taught you pangu shengong? The video of Henery Wang (no relation to John Wang eh?) was interesting, same sorta thing or more powerful?

I'd hazard a guess that these type of skills are more 'etheric body' type manipulations. Probably need to open up significant channels such as the psychic/thrusting channels and I'd imagine tendon work would be a prereq. to be able to do this... ?

Or

Is this type of stuff simply based on TCM, knowledge of accupoints and using those to manipulate the persons qi and thereby affect the more tangible innards like the nervous system, organs or limbs etc., with the LKJ skills simply being an extension of this ...?

[johnwang]

If you can kill someone without touching him, you will have no finger print on a dead body, no murder weapon too. That will be a perfect crime. If LKJ can be real, even the greatest crime solver on earth won't be able to solve the crime that you committed. There is always something that's called "logic".

[dspyrido]

Lkj a flinch reaction? Hardly what we see in the lkj demos.

Now you can psyche someone out. You can even make people fear the idea of fearing but usually with conditioning. So demos on students can be explained especially if they are suggestible, compliant &/or submissive. Hell a good street magician can pick (note pick) someone who is suggestible & within a minute make them feel ill. Ask them & they will not state they are manipulating chi & are usually barely able to defend themselves.

So where does that leave us? Is this a genuine martial ability on chi that can be psychometrically (even if not physically) tested? Does it defy any testing even though there is a clear proposed cause & effect? Is the whole thing a misunderstanding between psychology vs. Chi theory? When we do it one way & replicate it & even rudimentary explain it then why not accept this idea of why it exists?

The evidence stacks up on suggestion but would love to see evidence on field manipulation at a distance carried out as a double blind experiment.

[UniTaichi]

Hi Amor,

I'd hazard a guess that these type of skills are more 'etheric body' type manipulations. Probably need to open up significant channels such as the psychic/thrusting channels and I'd imagine tendon work would be a prereq. to be able to do this... ?

Or

Is this type of stuff simply based on TCM, knowledge of accupoints and using those to manipulate the persons qi and thereby affect the more tangible innards like the nervous system, organs or limbs etc., with the LKJ skills simply being an extension of this ...?

Good question. In my search, I have experience these type of skill and the method of training I have experience are mostly different with overlap on various degree. So my answer is for a person to reach the level as Michael have mentioned, it is a combination of all or some of the component that you mentioned.

BTW, Amor. I wanted to address your question on Yin/Yang in another thread. IMU Taiji is 1. Yin/Yang is 2. In Yijing , 1 is 2 and 2 is also 1 . Taiji HAVE and IS Yin/Yang. Is it '' alive '' and therefore give birth to 10,000 things. It just like A & B chemical combine = C . So you can said C is/have A & B.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[Michael]

It is possible to attack someone without touching them and by attack I mean completely neutralise, paralyze, fuck up, whatever, immediately, and more effective than a physical attack. I've experienced it and it was not a demo situation, it was an attack. Not a common skill and no one with the skill would ever advertise it or teach it openly for reasons that should be obvious.

@michael,

care to share some thoughts on what or how you feel its done?
with my own teacher, we had a student who said he would resist what ever one wants to call it, he passed out. As I've mentioned the effect tends to make people sick. depending on level and
intent of practitioner.

It was a long distance energy transmission that included a very low frequency that I could hear at only a couple of hertz of warble, like a secondary harmonic wave from the primary energy. The result was very much like sleep paralysis phenomenon, where it takes all available will power to barely move your hand and all conscious-level muscular movement is paralyzed, such as speech, lips, tongue, limbs, etc. Could be "overcome" like a sleep paralysis after maybe 15 seconds; my attacker only ran it for about five seconds. It was a kind of warning.

I assume one would need to know how to send energy at sufficient volume, need to be able to tune in to a frequency, and need to pinpoint the target in the sense of having good feedback ability, not geographic location, except for time zone. Once a person was good at energy transmission, just need a teacher to show them how to use the technique, but I think only a small number of people with the foundation ability level can pull it off as it requires complete mental focus to get good at it, I presume.

Do you possess these skills yourself

No, and if I did I probably wouldn't be talking about it. If you have a technological advantage, you would generally keep it quiet.

...is the one who attacked you the same person who taught you pangu shengong?

The person who taught me Pan Gu Shengong is the most morally upright person I know. Certainly, he has never attacked me or anyone else I know of. Kind of a stupid question, don't you think?

The video of Henery Wang (no relation to John Wang eh?) was interesting, same sorta thing or more powerful?

Can you post the link? Maybe it's in this thread, but the videos I saw looked like some old stuff, so I didn't check them.

I'd hazard a guess that these type of skills are more 'etheric body' type manipulations. Probably need to open up significant channels such as the psychic/thrusting channels and I'd imagine tendon work would be a prereq. to be able to do this... ?

I don't know exactly how my attacker developed his skills, but he does like to manipulate the center channel / zhong mai of his victims. He told me he does "fragrant qigong" (whatever that is) as well as some others, he channels "spirits", more likely demons. He's fucked.

Or

Is this type of stuff simply based on TCM, knowledge of accupoints and using those to manipulate the persons qi and thereby affect the more tangible innards like the nervous system, organs or limbs etc., with the LKJ skills simply being an extension of this ...?

He's a doctor of Chinese Medicine, and he uses that in his attacks, but he has a large variety and some of those rely on acupoints, some don't. TCM knowledge, qi gong, gong fu, meditation, all touch on fundamental parts of objective reality. Words and studying require separation, but they have the same "starting point". All is one, blah, blah. The tao that can be named, blah,blah.

[Michael]

Okay, I watched the Henry Wang video on the previous page. No idea what that is, but it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about instant paralysis of all conscious level muscular control from someone thousands of miles away who did not notify the victim/target that it was coming. In other words, a surprise attack with no way to signal the target what they're supposed to do.

[windwalker]

Lkj a flinch reaction? Hardly what we see in the lkj demos.

Now you can psyche someone out. You can even make people fear the idea of fearing but usually with conditioning. So demos on students can be explained especially if they are suggestible, compliant &/or submissive. Hell a good street magician can pick (note pick) someone who is suggestible & within a minute make them feel ill. Ask them & they will not state they are manipulating chi & are usually barely able to defend themselves.

So where does that leave us? Is this a genuine martial ability on chi that can be psychometrically (even if not physically) tested? Does it defy any testing even though there is a clear proposed cause & effect? Is the whole thing a misunderstanding between psychology vs. Chi theory? When we do it one way & replicate it & even rudimentary explain it then why not accept this idea of why it exists?

The evidence stacks up on suggestion but would love to see evidence on field manipulation at a distance carried out as a double blind experiment.

this is something I've been exposed to, working on for the last 10yrs
it really has nothing to do with anything mentioned IME. no its not a startle response.
the best way to understand it would be to start with the reactions of some of the push hand videos that get questioned all the time here.

If one can not see or understand whats going on in those videos there is little to no chance of understanding how this would work.

there is something called a qi chong (sp) or qi field this is what gets moved.....if one can sense or feel this, later they can understand how to move it.

how its demoed, is not really how one would use it, weather touched or not the process is the same, it just part of a larger dynamic this is a key point

its the same as what some others are doing with aikido ..... bringing the aiki into the art,,,,with taiji it would seem that many never really reach the stage where much of what is seen or said should be relatively understandable.

[suckinlhbf]

if one can sense or feel this, later they can understand how to move it.

Its like what the old grand masters said, "feel like do the form in water, feel the resistance", "feel the air around you", "merge with the universe", etc...All mysterious nowadays because it is hard to find the mix to get to this stage. It is like Mission Impossible.

[Ron Panunto]

Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".

Perhaps a starting point would be - do you believe that a person can admit some sort of invisible force from their body which can physically affect another person without contact? If it can affect a person can it also affect an object, or perhaps an animal?

This is an excellent starting point Rob since there are only four known forces in the universe: gravity, electromagnetic, the strong nuclear, and the weak nuclear. I'm sure that the theoretical physicists would love to know about a new one.