Linkongjin Explained in a Way That Makes Sense..

[windwalker]

Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".

Perhaps a starting point would be - do you believe that a person can admit some sort of invisible force from their body which can physically affect another person without contact? If it can affect a person can it also affect an object, or perhaps an animal?

This is an excellent starting point Rob since there are only four known forces in the universe: gravity, electromagnetic, the strong nuclear, and the weak nuclear. I'm sure that the theoretical physicists would love to know about a new one.

In physics, action at a distance is the nonlocal interaction of objects that are separated in space.

This term was used most often in the context of early theories of gravity and electromagnetism to describe how an object responds to the influence of distant objects. More generally "action at a distance" describes the failure of early atomistic and mechanistic theories which sought to reduce all physical interaction to collision. The exploration and resolution of this problematic phenomenon led to significant developments in physics, from the concept of a field, to descriptions of quantum entanglement and the mediator particles of the standard model.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance

I think you will find that physicist themselves are not quite sure about how things work.
as far as I know it only works on living things which would make sense and tend to follow the gen theory of qi.
one day my teacher motioned to come see something.

he gently tapped on one of the near by pine trees growing there. looking up we could see that all the needles moved as he touched it as if the tree was being gently shocked. interesting stuff

Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".

I dont agree, nor would anyone that I know of who can do it, or has experienced it.
this would not explain how from a distance of 12ft or more one is either pulled or pushed back.

Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not

here's the problem with this statement.
it a redefining of what is commonly accepted as being it by those who have experienced it or can do it.
so what, now we have something that is called a startle reflex labeled as kong jin?

I read many things posted by D_glenn, that tend to explain much of what I have experienced and felt which is good, with exception that his interpretations do not correspond to what I feel based on my own work and thought .

this thread while interesting seems like its starting to de evolve into looking at things through other theories which while things like physics can explain much of it IMO people so far tend to have ignored simpler things that relate to the same process that physics can explain.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass

this example IMO really covers a lot of what people see happening in many clips.

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOZY7lX_jw0

in this clip, what do you see happening?
can anyone explain it ?
has any one felt it?

I use this because it shows the exact same reactions as in some of henry wangs clips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emHl_a24CMY

some have said its different.
if so whats different?

[Miro]

Sorry, I can't watch Youtube at the moment. Regardless of whether the "other Linkongjin" exists or not, "this Linkongjin" is a real thing that everyone can agree on. Perhaps it would be a good place to start from to try explaining " advanced LKJ".

Perhaps a starting point would be - do you believe that a person can admit some sort of invisible force from their body which can physically affect another person without contact? If it can affect a person can it also affect an object, or perhaps an animal?

This is an excellent starting point Rob since there are only four known forces in the universe: gravity, electromagnetic, the strong nuclear, and the weak nuclear. I'm sure that the theoretical physicists would love to know about a new one.

Ehm, when we talk about force in martial arts, we do not talk about force of physics - a straight jab into face of my opponent is not any of those four forces you mentioned, I guess. But I admit I do not understand physics, so please tell me - is the straight jab gravity, electromagnetic or nuclear force? When I move my ear, which force is it? Thanks for your reply.

I do not have the book at hand, but Yang family manuscripts published by Chen Kung says clearly (in the section about various jins) that LKJ was possible in the old times but now (at the time of writing those manuscripts) there is not anyone who can do that. So LKJ certainly is not any fake movement as Martens described. I admit I did not see anyone with real LKJ. So it does not exist in my personal experience. But that does not mean it is not real. I just do not know (and I do not believe), I am waiting for the answer. Unfortunately, theoretical physicists and science generally are not able to give me answers to many other questions I have. On the contrary, mysticism, alchemy, Traditional Chinese Medicine or CMA and various similar stuff gave me some answers.

Miro

[D_Glenn]

I think you guys are too deadset in your experiences, so I'm throwing in the towel.

(I was also contemplating a response to Michael when I suddenly had some stomach issues that required a lengthy sit on the toilet, so I don't wanna mess around with his long distance abilities, (every time I get the runs from now on, I'm gonna be blaming Michael)).

So you now have my full compliance! And in the spirit of believing...

Windwalker, Michael, what do you guys think about "Qi Projections" against inanimate objects, like in this clip:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpc2nnBTcI

.

[D_Glenn]

I do not have the book at hand, but Yang family manuscripts published by Chen Kung says clearly (in the section about various jins) that LKJ was possible in the old times but now (at the time of writing those manuscripts) there is not anyone who can do that. So LKJ certainly is not any fake movement as Martens described. I admit I did not see anyone with real LKJ. So it does not exist in my personal experience. But that does not mean it is not real. I just do not know (and I do not believe), I am waiting for the answer. Unfortunately, theoretical physicists and science generally are not able to give me answers to many other questions I have. On the contrary, mysticism, alchemy, Traditional Chinese Medicine or CMA and various similar stuff gave me some answers.

That book is what prompted this current thread, a post from: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21406&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=52

Chen Yanlin (陳炎林) writes some about the lingkong jin (凌空勁) ability in his 1943 book 太極拳刀劍桿散手合編 TAIJI COMPILED: THE BOXING, SABER, SWORD, POLE, AND SPARRING.

He seems to indicate that while this skill is real and appears miraculous, “it is not something you ardently need to strive for, for it is really just a parlor trick,” (according to Brennan’s translation).

此勁異常奧妙。近於神祕。而非目覩者所能信。實乃一種精神上之作用而已。藝高者發此勁時。僅須口中一哈。對方卽雙足離地而後退。蓋因被發者。精神已為發者所吸引。無可抵抗。然被發者必須先明沾黏等勁。故一哈之後。卽由感覺而後退。否則發者仍無效。此勁雖奧妙莫測。但學者可不必深求。僅作遊戲觀可耳。相傳昔時楊健侯少侯父子。能吸引燭火近尺。一手隔之。火光遂熄。卽凌空勁中之一法。惟此功夫今已 失傳云。

.

[Miro]

Glenn,

thanks, I read that book many years ago and I forgot the details.

Miro

[Michael]

Michael, what do you guys think about "Qi Projections" against inanimate objects, like in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpc2nnBTcI

I don't think much about it. I have no experience with walking on wicker baskets or stamping my foot at boxes.

I think you guys are too deadset in your experiences, so I'm throwing in the towel.

Surprisingly, I believe in my experiences, especially when they are repeatable. I don't expect anyone else to believe them, or even consider them, unless they had a corollary and/or I could provide some extensive information, which they would have to be able to understand. Basic video is not enough to relate everything to the audience and you'd think "internal" people would know this. Maybe everyone's meditation practice is invalid because the video of you doing it does not prove what's happening in your mind? Does video show all subtle changes of posture? I'm sure there will be an awesomely irrelevant RSF answer to this rhetorical question. Can't wait to hear it.

I don't need to convince anyone and I would not try to explain much here. I'm generous enough to share my experience in case it's interesting, amusing, or even helpful to some people. That is enough.

In defense of the qi-haters, lol, I think all the LKG videos on the internet are ridiculous and people's discussion of what it is is absurd, but it does provide a silhouette of the huge holes in your "internal" training curriculum, which is why you hate, IMO, not about LKG I don't think, but about other stuffs. It compels so many of you to enviously dump on the more accomplished people who try to share on this forum. Not me, BTW. I'm not an accomplished person in CMA, but I marvel how the same people grind their petty axes on those who are at almost every opportunity.

In other words, LKG is one of the de facto strawmen on RSF used for self-comfort. You guys really need it, so enjoy laughing at those stupid videos.

[windwalker]

I think you guys are too deadset in your experiences, so I'm throwing in the towel.

(I was also contemplating a response to Michael when I suddenly had some stomach issues that required a lengthy sit on the toilet, so I don't wanna mess around with his long distance abilities, (every time I get the runs from now on, I'm gonna be blaming Michael)).

So you now have my full compliance! And in the spirit of believing...

Windwalker, Michael, what do you guys think about "Qi Projections" against inanimate objects, like in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpc2nnBTcI

.

my own cma experience spans over 40yrs with the last ten working directly with people who can do
what is shown in many of the video clips.
I have made it a point not to directly use or share my own experiences until recently understanding that others
would be skeptical as expected.

while doing this I've always attempted to show the possibilities indirectly of
things based on my own work and experiences.

to say that I am dead set in my own experiences, after ten ys of them,
how should one be?

in answer to your question, as far as I know it only works on living things.
others may find different.

More generally "action at a distance" describes the failure of early atomistic and mechanistic theories which sought to reduce all physical interaction to collision. The exploration and resolution of this problematic phenomenon led to significant developments in physics, from the concept of a field, to descriptions of quantum entanglement and the mediator particles of the standard model.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance[/quote]

kinda funny how people talk about physics, not understanding that from not understanding something directly leads to others ways of understanding indirectly.

[LaoDan]

Windwalker & others with experience training LKJ,

Are there non-martial examples of LKJ that you could point to? For example would the following be related to LKJ:

A) I tend to walk faster than many people and thus commonly pass them on the sidewalk. While approaching them from behind, it is fairly common for me to think about passing them to one side, resulting in them moving to that side (they are often rather oblivious to their surroundings and often walk in the middle of the sidewalk resulting in me making a choice/intent to pass on one side or the other of them). If they move over when I am still far enough behind them, I can change my thought to the other side and then they move to that side instead. To be clear, before I had the intention of passing them, they were walking steadily down the middle of the sidewalk – they were not weaving from side to side. Also, when I had the intention of passing them, I did not already make a movement towards the side that I had intended to pass on. Since they are unaware of my presence (I am behind them so they cannot see me, and they sometimes startle when I finally do pass them), they are neither cooperative nor antagonistic; is it still potentially LKJ if the recipient is unaware of the issuer? If this is not an example of LKJ, then why not?

B) My brother had a cat that was familiar with me but did not know me well (it was comfortable sitting on my lap). The first time that I practiced my Taijiquan form in the cat’s residence it came into the room, crouched down and began to watch me intently. After going through much of the form I became curious that the cat had not left and was still watching me intently without having moved. While continuing the form uninterrupted, I shifted my focus onto the cat to see if I could perceive specifically what the cat was looking so intently at (hands, stepping, torso, etc.). As soon as I focused my attention onto the cat it jumped up as if startled and sped away. While my intent was only to intently observe the cat that was intently observing me, would the resulting effect on the cat potentially be LKJ? Although I had not made any changes to my form movements that I was aware of, it is possible that the cat picked up on subtle physical cues rather than mental ones. Are LKJ effects possible without any intention by the issuer to physically affect the recipient?

C) The third example is just hearsay rather than personal experience. One of my students is serious about horsemanship and knows a well known teacher, as well as hosting that teacher for local workshops. His approach is apparently very much about mentally and physically merging with the horse as much as possible so that both are working together as optimally as possible. He told her this story. He was about to ride a horse that he had never ridden before, on a trail that he had never been on before. He was sitting on the horse with a map of the trail and was mentally going through the trail route before heading out, and he realized that the horse was making movements that reflected those that he was thinking about. Like the previous example, this may be a matter of the animal picking up subtle cues from the rider rather than connecting with the thoughts (intent) of the rider. Here the rider DID intend to direct the horse through the movements, but in the future when they were riding the trail rather than at that moment. Could this be an example of LKJ? If not, then why not?

Note that I tend to prefer examples with animals since they usually do not have hidden agendas (conscious or subconscious), although a trainer with an agenda could train the animal to pick up subtle clues (e.g. horses that can count and do simple math). Do you have any examples of LKJ masters affecting animals like they do with their students?

Dan

[windwalker]

I really stress that focusing only on this is really a small aspect of what should be an over all training outlook provided that ones training follows this model.

we work with the concept of what might be called focused awareness, intention. this reacts with what is called a qi field or qi chong. one must be able to feel this, and understand the practices used to develop, understand and test it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2DXdFYDXCk

disclaimer: this is practice allowing the students to feel and try to understand
yes it looks fake, I dont follow all of his explanations but the gen idea seems to be the same.
I tend to stick with words like awareness, intention ect. In china, words like qi, yi, shen are used with concrete
examples of what they mean nothing is a theory


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUHHv5b ... ded#at=345
another clip showing the same ideas in use, in what should be in a more understandable setting.
I have felt both, along with most other demos that are shown...

its was an everyday part of the practice nothing special,,,on the 2nd clip watch the contact points and the space between the bodies,,,see how the teacher changes this space, and how the student reacts to it.

the most often asked question are the students trying or what? from my own experience, they are trying just enough to keep themselves from getting injured, while still giving the teacher something to work with in the interest of feeling what the teacher is doing. martially there would be no chance given, what happens would happen even before the contact, the other would for the most part not be able to react to it.

most wonder about this aspect,,, this is because most are filled with their own inner intent, they can not feel what has already happened until its to late. for many when they do feel it, its quite a shock to the body and nervous system.

I tend to walk faster than many people and thus commonly pass them on the sidewalk. While approaching them from behind, it is fairly common for me to think about passing them to one side, resulting in them moving to that side (they are often rather oblivious to their surroundings and often walk in the middle of the sidewalk resulting in me making a choice/intent to pass on one side or the other of them). If they move over when I am still far enough behind them, I can change my thought to the other side and then they move to that side instead. To be clear, before I had the intention of passing them, they were walking steadily down the middle of the sidewalk – they were not weaving from side to side. Also, when I had the intention of passing them, I did not already make a movement towards the side that I had intended to pass on. Since they are unaware of my presence (I am behind them so they cannot see me, and they sometimes startle when I finally do pass them), they are neither cooperative nor antagonistic; is it still potentially LKJ if the recipient is unaware of the issuer? If this is not an example of LKJ, then why not?

I would no say because its passive not an active use of the idea.
the principles by which it works or could work seem to be there, ie "intent of action" others reacting to the intent even though the action itself was not preformed.

I had the opportunity to give a demo once at beijing collage.
this was suggested by one of my teachers students a phd level physiologist professor. She thought it would be a good way to introduce taiji, and show that even a laowai, could do it...lucky me

the class was filled with female students it was what is called woman's day in china she was giving a lecture on woman's health issues and such.

she asked for volunteers and selected 2.

the first one stood some 12 feet away, she was instructed to relax her body.
there needs to be a connection between ones self and what ever one wants to call it "qi field" awareness feild" ect.
once one can sense or feel this, then its a matter of either pushing or pulling it. uslly a body shape as in pushing or pulling is done but IMO not really necessary. It does help in focusing the intent with the action at hand.

the first student was rocked back slightly and then pulled forward, she as most reported it felt like something inside her was being moved. the others where very quite during but clapped afterwards.

the 2nd student the same set up was used, this time I didnt feel a good connection. sensing this I turned to the host and said no it wont work.

there are 2 components to this which a lot people having tried this with others often say " yep when the teacher tried it on me, he said my qi was not strong enough or developed enough, it didt work!! "

what the teachers say, is literally from my point of view and experience quite true. if one thinks of the qi field as really being a field then if its very scattered or un even, the teacher somehow has to compensate for this or it will not work so cleanly as what is seen in most demos.

the teacher can either use their own qi to supplement the others field and then move it, or as most do just say "your qi is not strong enough"

having said this many take it to mean that it would not or will not work on them forgetting that the way its used is really not the way its demoed, and for tourist " not students" most teachers will not feel the need to really make another feel it or not regardless.

[windwalker]

clip 1


clip 2


disclaimer: used only for example not a comment on the teacher or student.

in the 1st clip,

the teacher clearly has problems dealing with the student why?
his intent is to close to the physical action. In other words he slightly behind it, and has to make up for his intended action
using physical force. still at times he is able to make use of his intent but for what ever reason is still caught up dealing with the others body directly.

in the 2nd clip

the teacher is always ahead of the students intent, using and sensing it.
she understands how to make the "qi field" space around her move, this is what the students are reacting to.
this is what she connects with and what many have problems with.

what is called kong jin, is small part of a much lager dynamic of movement. weather its better or more effective or even works is all a matter of perspective. In my experience, having met with many people over the years, many are not really interested in changing enough for this way to be a reality for them despite feeling it used.

as some have mentioned in other threads, just getting it, is really the work of many yrs. requiring meeting or knowing someone who either can do it, or has some small ability with it. the real question I would ask for those always looking for it, is if one found it, then what?


clip 3

in this clip, please note that the student has and does compete in many mma type events.
he is very vocal about his experience and understands its usefulness.
he used to post here, but has not done so in long time after being repeatably questioned
having to validate something he knows instead of sharing.

many mention science or physics, seemly not understanding that they merely provide labels on what can be observed, and seek to understand things within a certain context or expand the context to include things that where not understood before.

IMO, the only way to first understand any of this is on its terms fist.
then depending on ones level of understanding maybe try to explain it in another way.

That was filmed in 1992/93 and the American guy in the clip had told me that it was definitely not 'Lin Kong Jin' that they were learning. It was a type of two person 'daoyin'. There was also a lot of 'Giving Face' to the teacher Shi Ming. He said it was unfortunate that a lot of the interview was edited out as it was made clear that this was more health related and everyone there was willingly going along and fully compliant, because after the show aired, people were flocking to see Shi Ming and the cult that formed around him became more like a circus side show.

that happens, and is one of the reasons my own teacher preferred to remain quiet about his own practice seeking neither fame nor fortune.

as far as giving face, its a "demo" being filmed for a western audience trying to illustrate a concept that the teachers practice is based on. The larger question should be that the doctor has been studying there for quite some time and is first trying to grasp it on its terms using his background as a doctor to see where it is the same and what is different.

[amor]

@ Windwalker

Interesting posts above. The 'sub-optimal' qi fields that hinders the LKJ demonstrations is what has been related to me too. In those cases it take ALOT of energy on the part of the LKJ teacher to get it to work with the student so they are just depleting themselves and so not very economical imo. This sort of thing as I understand it is more for healing although it could serve as a warning in combat scenario or if you have multiple attackers. But then again if you encounter attackers with the, as you say, scattered qi fields then not really gonna help you much and will again just deplete you. Although perhaps there is a way that some buddhist or taoist has figured out to draw a lot of energy so that they wont become depleted, who knows.

@Michael

Psychic attacks eh, this definitely sounds like black magic probably, in my uninitiated opinion.

@Unitaichi

yes id just add stillness in motion and then motion in stillness.

[windwalker]

But then again if you encounter attackers with the, as you say, scattered qi fields then not really gonna help you much and will again just deplete you. Although perhaps there is a way that some buddhist or taoist has figured out to draw a lot of energy so that they wont become depleted, who knows.

you would, if you worked with the basic ideas from which it arises from.
as I've mentioned many times the way its demoed is not really the way in which its used
the same ideas are at work weather one is touched or not....

[Ron Panunto]

I think you guys are too deadset in your experiences, so I'm throwing in the towel.

(I was also contemplating a response to Michael when I suddenly had some stomach issues that required a lengthy sit on the toilet, so I don't wanna mess around with his long distance abilities, (every time I get the runs from now on, I'm gonna be blaming Michael)).

So you now have my full compliance! And in the spirit of believing...

Windwalker, Michael, what do you guys think about "Qi Projections" against inanimate objects, like in this clip:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpc2nnBTcI

.

Complete trickery.

[Ron Panunto]

I think you guys are too deadset in your experiences, so I'm throwing in the towel.

(I was also contemplating a response to Michael when I suddenly had some stomach issues that required a lengthy sit on the toilet, so I don't wanna mess around with his long distance abilities, (every time I get the runs from now on, I'm gonna be blaming Michael)).

So you now have my full compliance! And in the spirit of believing...

Windwalker, Michael, what do you guys think about "Qi Projections" against inanimate objects, like in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpc2nnBTcI

.

my own cma experience spans over 40yrs with the last ten working directly with people who can do
what is shown in many of the video clips.
I have made it a point not to directly use or share my own experiences until recently understanding that others
would be skeptical as expected.

while doing this I've always attempted to show the possibilities indirectly of
things based on my own work and experiences.

to say that I am dead set in my own experiences, after ten ys of them,
how should one be?

in answer to your question, as far as I know it only works on living things.
others may find different.

More generally "action at a distance" describes the failure of early atomistic and mechanistic theories which sought to reduce all physical interaction to collision. The exploration and resolution of this problematic phenomenon led to significant developments in physics, from the concept of a field, to descriptions of quantum entanglement and the mediator particles of the standard model.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance

kinda funny how people talk about physics, not understanding that from not understanding something directly leads to others ways of understanding indirectly.[/quote]

I think your delusional Windwalker. You remind me of Charles Manson and his followers who were convinced that he was the second coming of Christ and could do anything. I've studied with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Jenli, lineage holders of the inventors of Taijiquan and they believe it is utter nonsense. I've had experience also, with so-called "fragrance qi-gong" from a visiting "master" (bator) and me and all of my classmates and my teacher experienced absolutely nothing. This stuff is a fraud and makes CMA, and especially Taijiquan a laughingstock. Try it with someone who is not a mindless minion of your teacher, try it in a double blind study, show it to Randi, try it in the ring.