Robert Smith vs. GM Chang

[johnwang]

In Martial Musings, Robert W. Smith commented on how he used his judo against all of Shang Dongsheng's top wrestlers, and won. Shuai jiao has no groundwork, and no submissions, and yet Smith still succeeded, even when fighting under those rules.

This is a 100% false statement made by Robert Smith.

The ACSCA has just assigned me full responsibility to clear this issue once for all. I'll gather all the information (after all it did happen about 40 years ago) and have a full report on this issue to the public ASAP. Let me just give the names here first.

The persons who had defeated Robert Smith in Taiwan back in the 60th were:

Roger Su 苏成 in Taipei, Taiwan and
Shen Chun-Hui 沈春辉 in Tainan, Taiwan

[Ray]

As much as Smith is a pioneer in introducing CMA to the American audience, his musings are clearly filtered by his biases and the intervening years. His adoration of CMC and disparagement of Draeger are particularly objectionable to those of us with ties to the latter. Congratulations on the Chan-Chiao development; I hope to read more in the future. Ray

[Josealb]

I don't think anyone here or anywhere in their right mind would believe that Robert Smith could have taken down any of Shang Dongsheng's top students.

Cool to have you back John, even if its just a one time post thing just for the sake of clarification.

[Andy_S]

John:

Actually, Smith made these claims in "Masters and Methods," published in 1974 and reprinted many times since. Smith was in Taiwan from 1959-1962.

Why has it taken the SC Camp 44 years to refute his claims?

I have to say I have always taken his writing at face value. Smith had been doing Judo since 1946. He was a big, strong, man. I would guess most of Chang's SC students (Smith says he wrestled at the National Police College) had had only a couple of years experience with Chang when Smith met him. (I assume, perhaps wrongly, that Chang arrived in Taiwan in 1948-9 and given the chaos of the time, did not get up and teaching on a regular basis until the early 50s...to put it another way, Chang would have had a much stronger cadre of SC students if Smith had visited 5 or 10 years later).

Still, I look forward to reading what you have to say.

Ray:

What disparegement of Draeger are you talking about? In 'Martial Musings,' Smith is highly complimentary, even affectionate towards Draeger. His only negative statements concern Draeger's (and Bluming's) criticisms of Chinese and CMA. In fact, Smith's chapter on Draeger is the finest eulogy to Draeger I have ever read, as well as being a very interesting portrait of the man.

[JAB]

Why is any of this important? John, I would much rather see the outcome of your book, then the outcome of this "issue" if that is what one calls it.
Jake

[Andy_S]

Jose:

SNIP
I don't think anyone here or anywhere in their right mind would believe that Robert Smith could have taken down any of Shang Dongsheng's top students.
SNIP

Well, given that Smith (born 1926):
- Had wrestled at high school and at the local YMCA;
- Had served six years in the Marines;
- Was a large, strong man - almost certainly bigger and stronger than the average mainland Chinese who were just getting established on Taiwan after three decades of civil war;
- Had been boxing since the early 40s, had worked the railways - a rough job in those days - and was a Golden Gloves coach;
- had been doing Judo for 12 years (with some of the best of the early crop of Judoka in American) befoer he reached Taiwan

Why would someone have to be insane (or near it) to believe that Smith would have been able to beat Chang's top lads?

Particularly given that one of Smith's teachers, Mas Tamura, had choked out the famed (Western) wrestler Karl Pojello in 1943?

And frankly, in the late 1950s, how good were Chang's top lads?

I practice CMA and love CMA, but there seems to be an over-reverence for CMA among some practitioners...nobody is unbeatalbe. Chang, perhaps - but Smith never claims to have beaten him.

[Ray]

Andy,
I'll pull my copy of "Martial Musings" out; read it when it first came out. Having read published correspondence between the two men, I was struck by different tone Smith took regarding Draeger in his autobiography vs. in letters to the man. There have been other accounts of Draeger's life in if I recall correctly materials published by the IHS/Hoplos group that are more insightful, but perhaps I'm biased myself.

[Josealb]

Well, given that Smith (born 1926):
- Had wrestled at high school and at the local YMCA;
- Had served six years in the Marines;
- Was a large, strong man - almost certainly bigger and stronger than the average mainland Chinese who were just getting established on Taiwan after three decades of civil war;
- Had been boxing since the early 40s, had worked the railways - a rough job in those days - and was a Golden Gloves coach;
- had been doing Judo for 12 years (with some of the best of the early crop of Judoka in American) befoer he reached Taiwan

Why would someone have to be insane (or near it) to believe that Smith would have been able to beat Chang's top lads?

That's a nice all around analytic overview Andy. The answer is because he was Chang Tungsheng. (and Robert has a reputation)

[johnwang]

Why has it taken the SC Camp 44 years to refute his claims?

If people didn't make such statement in other Judo forum, the ACSCA will have no interest to dig out ancient history like this. Please notice that Robert Smith was 4th (or 3rd) Dan from 講道館 (a famous Judo school in Japan) when he was in Taiwan. Roger Su was just a high school boy and Robert must out weight Roger at least 40 lbs.

The guy with longer hair and bigger eyes was Roger Su (at 0.27). Since Roger Su lives in Taiwan, he did write a report to the Taiwan news medium but we won't know that in US.

http://johnswang.com/central_police_col ... class2.WMV

That clip just show who Roger Su is. Here is the public statement from Roger Su. Hope someone can help me to translate it here so people won't think that I'm not faithful to the original article. I have to delete some information about Wang Shu-Chin 王樹金. Don't want to get into that argument. I'll try to translate of people will be interesting in it.

Roger Su: 15 years old, 162 cm height, 51 kgs weight, 2 years in SC, favor moves - Side door 1/2 bowing 1/2 trapping
Shen Chun-Hui: 17 years old, 175 cm height, 48 kgs weight, 2 years in SC, favor move - Side door 1/2 bowing 1/2 trapping
Robert Smith: age ? , 198 cm height, 98 Kgs weight, 3rd Dan Judo from 講道館, favor moves - Aishibalah, Kisha Kuruma
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Jun. 27, '08, Taipei
AA. Robert Smith 係於1957透過周繼春叔叔(空軍上校/中校)介紹來和常老師學摔角 !
當時他已獲日本東京講道館頒"柔道三段"實力 ! 在美國已是柔道名師並著有
"Judo" 一書出版發行 ! 曾致贈一本給常老師相信你也見過 !
BB. 當時有一天晚間由周叔叔帶同 Robert Smith 到台北市廣州街"中央警官學校"由
游泳池改裝之摔角場兼靶場練習摔角 ! 他當時身高約 198cm , 體重約 98kgs ! 記
得當時常老師看到他脫下之一雙皮鞋擺在摔角場邊時告訴大家笑稱他的皮鞋活像
兩條"小船" ! 當時在場我記得是中央警官學校 24 期上課有王茂竹,葉登文等人上
有我,沈春暉,岑貴成和湛金濤師兄等人! 當晚常老師先要求我下場與 RobertSmith
實摔 ! 他著柔道衣,我穿摔角衣 ! 我時年十五歲建中高一,身高162cm體重51kgs !
只跟常老師練過兩年摔角 ! Robert Smith 專長柔道之"送腳掃 Aishibalah" 和"膝
車Kisha Kuruma" 動作非常犀利剛猛 ! 他多次以其專長攻擊我極具震憾力 ! 唯均
未能將我摔倒 ! 我當時個子只到他胸口 ! 最後我以非常快速的"偏門揣蹩"將他過
頭凌空摔倒在地 ! 他起身後連連對我說"Good Boy ! Good Boy !" 叫停, 我至今還
記得非常清楚 !!! 接下來沈春暉看我用我們兩人的共同專長"偏門揣蹩"把 Robert
Smith摔倒! 他也主動跳出和 Robert Smith 摔 ! 結果 Robert Smith 也被沈春暉以
相同動作快速凌空摔倒在地 ! 時沈春暉年十七歲,身高165cm,體重48kgs,就讀師大
附中高一 !
CC. Robert Smith 說打敗所有常老師最好學生是胡說八道 ! 他只能摔贏當時實力較弱
的 警官學校24期學生們 ! 王茂竹他都無法摔倒 !
DD. 有一年我到Ohio參加 Gene Chicone七十歲生日, Michael Lograsso拿出一本
Robert Smith 返美後所寫描述他當年來台向多位國術師父們學習中國武術經過一
書中除說明係透過周繼春叔叔引見台灣多位國術界名師習藝外 ! 對常老師以找一
些資深學生Senior Students來將他摔倒的教法非常不滿 ! 而事實上只有我和沈春
暉兩個小毛頭 !? 才練兩年摔角 ! 那是其所謂常老師的"Senior Students" !?
EE. 我不知 Robert Smith 如此胡說 ! 我以上所述完全是當時現場實況 ! 必要時可轉刊
美國武術雜誌或網站以正視聽 ! 我絕無半句謊言可百分之兩百負法律責 !!! 沈春暉
目前尚在台南 ! Tel.886-7695-2511(O), 886-6234-7678(H) !
FF. 你可否將Robert Smith書上所言掃描寄來給我見識見識 ? 謝謝 !

[iwalkthecircle]

Why is any of this important? John, I would much rather see the outcome of your book, then the outcome of this "issue" if that is what one calls it.
Jake

history is always be treated as lesson learn.....

next time some guy come for challenge one must set up a video camera.
it is not right to leave lies in a published book to make one look good.

I only met with Roger Soo twice this year, & he is "very very very impressive" SC uncle.
His power and speed is amazing.

[edededed]

I guess "Aishibalah" should be "ashibarai" and "Kisha Kuruma" should be "Hizaguruma."

And I am on Chang Dongsheng's side

[Bhassler]

JW,

I appreciate your desire to uncover the truth of this incident, and I hope you realize that you cannot change most people's minds on this-- it's like trying to change people's mind on a presidential candidate. People will believe what they want to believe.

People will say that Roger Su (or anyone else) can lie just as easily as Robert Smith. The best we can hope for is that someone will realize that there are at least two sides to every story and perhaps some people will be more open to other points of view sometime in the future.

B-

[SPJ]

Many people made many claims. Most people usually IGNORE the claims.

The Central Police academy had and still has the best SC team and training.

If someone claimed that he or she defeated some students, it is believeable.

But if someone claimed that he or she defeated every one that is good, may be so and may not be so.

--

Thank you for posting and update.

[SPJ]

http://johnswang.com/central_police_col ... class2.WMV

Thank you very much for the clip.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgPzk85B ... re=related

The "king of shuai jiao" both in China and Taiwan.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZFHlW5B ... re=related