dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
Greg J wrote:Given that these two masters were (I'm assuming) highly trained in their respective arts, why does it look like they are slap boxing?
wayne hansen wrote:I have said this before
The police told them at the last minute that due to the betting on the fight they were not allowed to win loose or draw
The police knew they could not control the crowd
So they just mucked around
In the 70's chan had his school around the corner from our TST school
We fought his students many times and he produced some good fighters
wayne hansen wrote:We fought his students many times and he produced some good fighters
liokault wrote:wayne hansen wrote:We fought his students many times and he produced some good fighters
Because, after this embarrassing face losing farce, they actually started sparring with gloves and force.
The video clearly shows two people who are either really inept or have never sparred, getting a shock when they start to spar.
Greg J wrote: why does it look like they are slap boxing?
liokault wrote:, after this embarrassing face losing farce, they actually started sparring with gloves and force.
Ah Louis wrote:Oh what a joy, convincing people and yourself you know something when you don't. Must be tough to believe your own hype losing sight of reality and actually be delusional enough to take a fight. A fight that results in exposing you as a fraud to the world for ever.
Bao wrote:Greg J wrote: why does it look like they are slap boxing?
Restricted rules set. Western boxing was an "in" thing. The audience wanted a boxing match. Only western boxing rules, nothing else allowed. Even the kicks you see was prohibited.
The people who arranged it wanted a match for 6 rounds. They were told they must last. Also consider that Wu was about 60 years old and Chan in his 30s, so Chan must take it easy. The arrangers, and as said, the police, had interests from betting. This was also a reason they wanted a long match. But the match was stopped after two rounds, due to one of them hurting his arm.
They can't keep their guards up, so they probably both sucked as fighters (or maybe it was about looking bold and brave?) But still the reasons above explains why it looks a certain way and why they issue single strikes and why no one tries to just run the other one down.
Apparently Dong Yingye was furious after watching the match and told Wu that he was a disgrace and that he knew nothing about Taiji.liokault wrote:, after this embarrassing face losing farce, they actually started sparring with gloves and force.
Again, it was a western boxing rules set. The boxing the Chinese knew about was older western boxing. The glove thing was not something they didn't consider because it hadn't caught up with them. To most people's knowledge western boxing meant a bare knuckle fight.Ah Louis wrote:Oh what a joy, convincing people and yourself you know something when you don't. Must be tough to believe your own hype losing sight of reality and actually be delusional enough to take a fight. A fight that results in exposing you as a fraud to the world for ever.
It's an unfair comment regardless how bad you think about this match. Again, they were not allowed to use any style knowledge as throws, knees, elbows etc. If you are going to expose some one as fraud, you need to set him free and let him show what he can and allow him to use his skill set.
liokault wrote:The fight looked the way it looked, because the fighters sucked, because the fighters didnt train proplerly.
Anything else is making excuses.
I will address some issues as to "why this sucked."
1. Fighters were knocked off balance and frequently. What this means is no experience in yielding or rooting. Watch a boxing match. Opponents are VERY infrequently knocked off balance when you compare shots that knock them off balance with shots that land and don't. Don't tell me I "don't understand." Being off balance is bad whether you are boxing or playing soccer. It's fundamental to forceful, useful movements.
2. The fighters were frequently thrown off balance by their own movements. What this means is--no experience in yielding or rooting AND bad footwork. It also has something to do with....
3. Rotational Movements were too large. I do not mean that twisting existed and it shouldn't have, or that rotational movements existed and that that concept is bad. What I mean is that the movements discribed a path that was too long about the axes. A large rotation is a slow rotation. A slow rotation has NO impact. Every rotational movement in a combat art/sport is small. And the better you get, the smaller those movements become, to a biomechanical limit. When wrestlers first learn to hip throw, they make a big slow clumsy step around and throw the partner. As they improve they make a very small foot change that is as clean as a pirouette called a backstep that allows them to move into the throw much more quickly. Another example is a boxer's hook. Everybody who starts learning this punch almost invariably throws a looper like a half-drunk frat boy. As you get better, the movement becomes tighter and tighter until it becomes sharp and has pop.
4. Pushed punches and kickes. Punches and kicks were pushed rather than fired and returned. The difference between pushing and striking a heavy bag is obvious. A pushed punch or kick makes the bag swing. A properly thrown punch or kick causes it to fold over. Don't tell me "internal/external." You want to hurt the other guy, not push him around. Maybe if you're doing some esoteric internal organ thing I've never seen, but these guys were just punching and kicking (sort of) Pushing does not hurt the other guy, leaves you open for too long, and has a tendency to overbalance causing you to make BAD corrective actions, like sticking your head out to over compensate for poor body structure.
5. Flustered when actually kind of hit by something that almost had enough pop to do something maybe. Inexperience shows.
This can all be summed up: Those of us who have actually fought and watched real fighters fight saw this and said "The biomechanics here were all wrong."
I don't care what style you do, you can't ignore that we're all built basically the same, so offbalance movement comes from IMPROPER movement, regardless what label you attach.
Bottom line was it was inexperience that made both these guys suck. Maybe they're great teachers. But they're Z class fighters. That's not anything to be ashamed of. I'm not knocking them. I'm knocking the people that think something mystical and esoteric is going on because they're masters, or that "it's SUPPOSED to look like this," because they're brainwashed.
If you find anything worthy of note in this fight other than:
1. At least they had the balls to step up.
2. Here's how NOT to look,
You need a reality check.
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