master Gao Zhuangfei

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:57 am

the thought that moves the hand is not.


I think Neuroscience and research in that field would disagree with you.

one last time:

What is the Field? What is it that the partner is interacting with?

Something so concretely real to you should be VERY easy to answer.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:30 am

Who someone trained with is no identifier of their skill level or personal capability. We should NEVER assume skill based on lineage.


It is, if its the the same skill being talked about and used


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:46 am

I love these threads of martial arts illusionists with people on their payroll fooling people. In any of the videos, they take legitimate skills and exaggerating them to the impossible. These so called "Masters" (of deception) are all over 60 years old saying it take decades to learn their skill.

What is funny is they come out of nowhere, instant celebrity Master's. It isn't like they where well known martial artists in their 30s and we can see how they developed.

I love the impracticality of it all. These patrolled assistances casually and passively walk up to them stands there unassertively and gently reachers out and touches the "Master." The fairy tale continues with the most ridiculous impressions of electoral shock ever. The no-touch Fajin is even more of an impractical and ridiculous stage act. These "Masters" might as well fart in a general direction and get the same results.

But what is worse is people still take them seriously. The scientific study of the brain tells us so much about how we perceive and determine reality. It tells us our brains are fooling us all the time, and how easy we can convince ourselves to have strong belief in something that doesn't exist. When someone is lost in a desert without water and very thirsty they will see water on the horizon. The water they think they see is a mirage. Nothing can convince them what they're seeing isn't water. They will walk until they die toward what they think is water.

Belief in something can be so strong it can defeat rational thinking and common sense, for example love sickness, paranoia, all sorts of delusions. I hate to say it, even with people sick with disease desperate to save their lives often believe more strongly fraudulent cures, than with modern medicine. No one can convince you of something as well as yourself. The power of the mind is great.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:52 am

WW,

Myself and others here (I think), don't really have issue with certain parts of these demonstrations that are co-operative, but show "normal" things - by tai chi standards. By that I really mean reactions. How it's explained isn't the point - there's nothing known to man and his science that can explain away certain questionable reactions, other than in the ways some of us have been discussing with you for some time. You reject these ideas every time saying that you feel it's not like that. OK, you can explain the work, the tai chi, in other ways - the classical way, or normal modern language descriptions. You can describe the normal going on with basic physics if you like. But physics, as it stands, will not explain the empty force or why a guy jumps up and down hard multiple times from a light push or nudge. Nothing will explain it, because it goes against our applicable laws of physics and what we do and do not know.

The best you can manage for now is a hypothesis. Then you would have to show how this hypothesis could be tested with experiments for example.

What always baffles me is how you defend/support all clips as being "the same" and treat them all - and everything in them - as something authentic. Whether that's because you feel every teacher has these abilities "for real", I don't know. You leave no room for doubt in your mind that any of these demos are misrepresenting what can be realistically accomplished with anyone, rather than a compliant and versed student. It would be really remarkable if all these people had abilities like this that they could manifest on anyone, anytime, anywhere. I would find it more credible if you for instance held up someone as an example that you have personally experienced these specific things being questioned. You cannot possibly personally vouch for everyone you post. yet you speak about the clips as if you can and do vouch for what's being shown being completely authentic and not embellished.

These are some of the things people really question here IMO. You seem to go off in your own direction and never address these issues with anything useful. It's one thing that these Chinese teachers explain with the same/similar theories and beliefs. It doesn't follow, that this is truly what is happening.

I doubt masters of old understood or knew Physics models the way these modern guys do. So it's a new thing in that respect. Maybe it's popular and what the new breed of Chinese students like or want to hear. Again it doesn't follow that their explanations are really happening that way.

I think you really need to consider what I have written, because even translating the videos and hearing these teachers explanations - regardless that they are similar/match each-other - does not get to the heart of peoples dissatisfaction with certain elements in such clips.

I will post a clip I came across recently. It was interesting in that I was fairly sure I hadn't come across it before and it was showing a number of Tai chi masters demonstrating in the typical fashion. And maybe that's the thing - in any "industry" you have to keep up with your competitors or you lose out. So maybe there's a bit of that going on too. There are definitely moments in the following clip where I think the reactions of the partners are embellished and exaggerated in unnecessary ways. These kind of Demos may also be in part due to the situation of martial arts in China going somewhat behind closed doors in terms of practice. Maybe it was safer to show and develop practice along a softer route if you will.

There seems to be such a confluence of factors that can come together and explain the phenomenon. But yet belief in *something else* remains and unsubstantiated other than by anecdotal means.

I think translating some of these explanation's is a good thing - especially for those like me who have no idea about the Chinese language. It's also great that you seem to be willing to engage and look further into documenting and sharing what you work on with others.

Perhaps your own videos with students, much like that friend of yours does would be a good way to go.
I say all this because it's becoming pretty apparent that we seem to be stuck in this circular debate that never really goes anywhere. Most/ all that can be said has been already. No one is really going to change thoughts or beliefs overnight through this exercise. The "2 sides" seem to be talking past each-other to some extent, and that's what I would really like to try and rectify. I really feel you don't get where many of us are really coming from and what's really being questioned and criticised, or at least such an understanding for that position is not reflected by what you post.

You need to understand better what you would need to address for these hurdles to be overcome and why it just may not be possible for one person, or even a single group. If you are not as you say trying to convince anyone, you must certainly be honest and admit you are trying to persuade people to come around to your views or draw them to this kind of thing.

I recognised Wang Peisheng near the beginning of this, but not any others:

Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:02 am

Two great posts Cloudz and Ah Louis.

As my question remains ignored i will bow out here.

thanks
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:19 am

You can describe the normal going on with basic physics if you like. But physics, as it stands, will not explain the empty force or why a guy jumps up and down hard multiple times from a light push or nudge. Nothing will explain it, because it goes against our applicable laws of physics and what we do and do not know.


@ George,

thanks for a detailed post, I really do disagree that physics will not or can not explain it. As I've mentioned a number times and others have physics can not deal with mind. But if one looks at what is being said and the reactions shown, they should see that it is very consistent.

As long as people dont see it, they can talk about it. Its hard to argue with a translation but once put into action the translation is abandoned.

There are a couple of models that I'm looking into that I feel explain quite well. There are also a number of people I know including myself that are working on making it more understandably. To reach the skill really depends on having a lot of the basic skill sets developed, For most IME the basics are not as developed as they feel they are. I include myself in this,,,still very much work to do....

Some have asked for translations of what is shown maybe feeling that this might help in "seeing" what or how its done.
seems like it really dosent matter much, which for me is again strange considering this is an IMA site. They ignore the translation :-\

Others native speakers, are pretty negative about well known masters in china that I post here, agreeing
with the none native speakers but not offering any explanation for what the teacher is saying or doing... a pity really seems like
it would be more constructive to point out the point the teacher was trying to get across...

The last post kind of illustrates this, with well known teachers I use here to illustrate a point.
I love these threads of martial arts illusionists with people on their payroll fooling people. In any of the videos, they take legitimate skills and exaggerating them to the impossible. These so called "Masters" (of deception) are all over 60 years old saying it take decades to learn their skill.

What is funny is they come out of nowhere, instant celebrity Master's. It isn't like they where well known martial artists in their 30s and we can see how they developed.


not even any point in addressing it....

soon its new yr, I wish all a new yr...
I thought that with a request of translations it might be more helpful.
Something not so easy to do and takes time....I can see now not really worth the effort
my mistake
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:40 am

windwalker wrote: I really do disagree that physics will not or can not explain it.


I am not saying it "will not" - I don't know what the future holds. But If there is something there, at some point we will (should) be able to identify it and measure it. At the moment it doesn't seem "we" know what that proposed *thing* is or how exactly it works. At the moment science method/physics can not explain it - it has the potential to, it has the method to but it has not been acheived. Then I think (I'm not a scientist) you would at the same time have to rule out other possible explanations also. It's beyond my knowledge how such a thing could be proved by science/physics but it would be far from straightforward..
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:41 am

cloudz wrote:
windwalker wrote: I really do disagree that physics will not or can not explain it.


I am not saying it "will not" - I don't know what the future holds. But If there is something there, at some point we will be able to identify it and measure it. At the moment it doesn't seem "we" don't know what that proposed *thing* is or how exactly it works. At the moment science method/physics can not explain it - it has the potential to, it has the method to but it cannot do so currently.

Do you disagree with that still?


pm ;)
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:45 am

windwalker wrote:
cloudz wrote:
windwalker wrote: I really do disagree that physics will not or can not explain it.


I am not saying it "will not" - I don't know what the future holds. But If there is something there, at some point we will be able to identify it and measure it. At the moment it doesn't seem "we" don't know what that proposed *thing* is or how exactly it works. At the moment science method/physics can not explain it - it has the potential to, it has the method to but it cannot do so currently.

Do you disagree with that still?


pm ;)


no worries - I edited a bit btw.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:00 am

Windwalker,

Let's just say that everyone agrees this is real. No BS, no hypnosis, etc. just down-to-earth, matter of fact that this is totally possible.

Can you, or anyone in the world be trained to use this field, in a couple of months, to make a mugger stab himself with his own knife, preferably driving the blade up under his own jaw, or even just use the field to move his arm enough so that he guts himself?

Or could it be used to prevent someone from pulling the trigger of a gun, or better yet use the field to move his thumb to press/switch the safety of the gun to on?

What is the degree of control you personally have over the opponent without touching them? (ie move whole body, move individual arm, move fingers)

.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby amor on Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:26 am

windwalker wrote:


Some have asked for translations of what is shown maybe feeling that this might help in "seeing" what or how its done.
seems like it really dosent matter much, which for me is again strange considering this is an IMA site. They ignore the translation :-\

Others native speakers, are pretty negative about well known masters in china that I post here, agreeing
with the none native speakers but not offering any explanation for what the teacher is saying or doing... a pity really seems like
it would be more constructive to point out the point the teacher was trying to get across...

The last post kind of illustrates this, with well known teachers I use here to illustrate a point.
I love these threads of martial arts illusionists with people on their payroll fooling people. In any of the videos, they take legitimate skills and exaggerating them to the impossible. These so called "Masters" (of deception) are all over 60 years old saying it take decades to learn their skill.



Thanks for providing a translation although I will admit some of it is still way over my head but I am keeping an open mind and I would be going with herd on this one, calling it fake and what not, except that I have seen for myself such stuff demonstrated in front of me on quite a few occasions.

But as I think I've said before this sort of demonstration imo is really just for practice, its a demonstration of power but not the actual wielding of power itself if that makes sense.
I see this practice as between two similar adepts i.e. two who already practice taichi are intermediate to advanced and so will have developed a degree of softness and sensitivity. The field stuff probably is true I don't doubt it and I would surmise it comes more into play when you're dealing on the level of yi before qi and jin/li has manifested. But if I am correct in that line of thought then it's really a higher level of skill being able to 'sense' a persons energy or field as you say.

But I'm still not too sure how this would be used against your average street thug/brawler who probably would not have a developed field so you would need to get in closer quarters with him/her.
But I'd imagine this practice teaches one how to neutralise and then attacking the empty side because that's the only common denominator between the taichi adepts in the video and a street thug. The adepts are already soft so we see the results is a quick bounce, with a street thug there would be no 'spinginess' in them so once you' have neautralised he's not going to bounce but will be exposed to any technique of your choosing, punch, throw, fajin etc.

In one of the real life demonstrations of this the teacher would be doing a moving push hands with the student and it's obvious the student was soft because I was not allowed to participate as I was a beginner at the time and apparently there was a chance I could sustain injury so that says something about the practice, that it requires existing softness and gives an idea about how your average street thug would come off in such a stituation. The student was pushed backwards, made to jump or fall down or jump while circling back. Something was happening that I can't be totally sure of but the teacher was feeling for something inside the student and exploiting it.
A few times the teacher would 'wave his hands' and make the student do the previous actions without touching but I think this is based on some level of predictability that the teacher has tuned into gauged from the previous touching part of the routine. But then again it might be due to the field I can't ascertain which one was used.

It's a difficult topic to explain but I would say the more exposure you have to such practices the better one can explain it, even people who have been doing this fairly consistently for only a brief period won't be sure exactly what is happening until they actually do progress beyond the fundamentals
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:12 pm

Here is a suggestion, take way all the Chinese coded language. What take "empty force" it is clearly coded language, just like "listening" is in Taiji. Now describe what you see, in fact ask a child to describe what they see in their own words.

The validation of these stunts are dependent on the words use to describe (hide or confuse) what is happening. More people are convinced by esoteric language than not, because it makes what is happening special, unique, magical. Coded language is part of the art of persuasion. Coded language also makes something special where people are enticed to learn the skill and being devoted to those who have it. People want to believe in something beyond the norm, like the supernatural. Because, it makes them feel powerful and unique dreaming of having an unique super natural ability. Even though that power has no other practically than winning devoted converts.


The power of language is far more persuasive than the skill. There is no disagreement when the explanation of these high level abilities of these "Masters" is translated into another language. Expect when translated into the language of science. The arguments really get intense when it come to these "Master's" abilities when asked to translate and explain these "Master's" abilities in the language of physics. Scientific language takes all the fun; myth and magic out of it.

Those people who argue against science and devoted believers that the abilities are real never develop the same powers of their "Masters." Because they believe it is all real. By believing that the unrealistic abilities they see is something real and possible, they never achieve it. Because it is all faked. The only ones who do seem to get the skill, always seems to be the Chinese, are those on the "Master's" payroll in on the farce that help pull it off by bouncing and jumping around ridiculously.

I had my Taiji teacher, send me stumbling across the room many times. But, each time he explained in uncoded language and I was aware he had capitalized on my posture being in a position advantageous to me losing my balance and stumbling. I was so off balance the slightest nudge was all it took. It was like leaning up against an object and my center of gravity was weak carrying my weight up into my chest, I was top heavy. My chest was stuck out, my gut suck in, lots of muscle tension in the upper body. Plus, my knees and hips bend, my feet favorably position not to support my body well. I was under some straining and wobbly. Of course I was easy to stumble. When stumbling my body naturally want to prevent me from fall, trying to regain balance, which is stumbling. I the harder I worked to keep from falling down the greater distance I covered stumbling. The more I tried to get my balance the more gravity was working against me and my own momentum, all cause me to stumble over several yards. Eventually, it was all too many forces to over come at once, something the body can't do, I lost my balance and fell. It wasn't magic. I was in a position favorable to stumbling. Like walking on a narrow I- beam and you begin to lose your balance, stuck in a battle to regain your balance, and someone comes up next to you and nudges you. The end result is you fall of the beam. Same thing. No magic.

Code language is very powerful not to explain the truth, rather to hide it. For me if a person uses coded language and doesn't explain it, I move on.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:13 pm


This is edited from the longer original but thanks to Bailewen for subtitling it.

Can't you see that he is using touch. That his soft touch is really hurting the guy, he's getting a Na on the guy's spine in damn near everyone of those but he lets him throw himself out/ he let's him loose, so that he can get away from the pain and serious injury.

The guy is scared, he knows Wang could seriously maim or even paralyze him, and then he starts to flinch when Wang is trying to show him stuff, Wang says "See he's confused.", he's already 'Conditioned' him, the guy is anticipating pain. When people reach this stage it's best to let them chill out, but Wang doesn't have anyone else and he's not teaching the guy, so he goes on demonstrating.

My Grandteacher was friends with Wang. He was at that demonstration and said to him afterwards "You know that everyone is going to use this video to support the existence of Lin Kong Jin, (Even though that's not what Wang was demonstrating). WPS just laughed and said something like, "Yeah maybe but if they believe in that, then they don't deserve to be doing martial arts anyway. So fuck em' ".

.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:26 pm

you should stick to things you know about or can do....

no one is using this to justify anything.
It only shows the same ideas in use by one of his students
master Gao Zhuangfei
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:42 pm

"You know that everyone is going to use this video to support the existence of Lin Kong Jin, (Even though that's not what Wang was demonstrating).


sure kinda makes sense, he couldn't do it, and you also know its not something he could do.
you know this is not "kong jin" how?

what if he said the opposite would you then come out and post supporting it or explaining it?

If you have nothing substantive to add why post a negative about something you dont know about
have not experienced nor apparently understand. Always surprising to me considering the amount of
translating you do.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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