master Gao Zhuangfei

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby Ian on Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:15 am

0:28 - whenever
"Wuji is a circle, it's empty.
Let's talk scientifically - all objects, regardless of object, have bodies and fields. These fields are what we consider 'wuji'; the bodies are what we refer to as 'youji'.
So in taijiquan terms, we're using wuji to influence youji, and youji to cause a reaction in wuji."

We are in the territory of ((((((FIELDS)))))) here.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:39 am

Bao wrote: The reactions you see in the clips is, IMO not very interesting and not worth debating again. But He might have some very interesting practice in his background, knowledge and skills. I dislike many things about certain demonstrations. But still, I am not so easy to judge a teacher or his actual skills due to the demonstrations I see. But again, I would like to see other things. Like what practice his students are practicing. Why can't we have a more productive discussion than going on with the same endless things again and again and again? These debates leads to nowhere. @@@


I'd done some digging online and found that the old man in the clip actually learned Taiji from Wang Peisheng. That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt and said, "If he has skill, he's chosen a very bad way to demonstrate it." (If he'd gotten his Taiji from some unknown source, I would have begun the sentence with 'if he HAD any skill...")

Not sure about you, but I personally find it difficult to have a constructive discussion about this type of demo where the student is bounced back with little to no contact, or even when the connection is broken.

Perhaps I was a little riled up earlier, but it's how I always feel when I see teachers (especially those with real skill and knowledge) holding out on people while try to sell their snake oil to the public.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:46 am

We need to move past these demo's if we are to really examine and progress the utility of the internal arts. They are truly powerful combat systems ... but not because of what occurs to compliant students in these demonstrations.

I live in hope that at some point we will return to discussions on the merits of Tai Chi Chuan as a truly useful fighting art.

Chris.


yep

Image

is this a demo, or is it fighting?
what is being shown ?
is not the same as what the teacher had discussed?
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:49 am

s this a demo, or is it fighting?
what is being shown ?
is not the same as what the teacher had discussed?


this was not tai chi. He isnt flying away from no touch and he isnt moving without me touching him.

That picture is me demonstrating the PROBLEM with providing a line of support for the partner from the contact point to the back foot and how it makes your front foot vulnerable and light. It also was demonstrating that without an 'opposite side' your structure is very vulnerable.

It is in a totally totally different Sphere to what is being shown in the no touch stuff.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:00 am

I'd done some digging online and found that the old man in the clip actually learned Taiji from Wang Peisheng. That's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt and said, "If he has skill, he's chosen a very bad way to demonstrate it." (If he'd gotten his Taiji from some unknown source, I would have begun the sentence with 'if he HAD any skill...")

Not sure about you, but I personally find it difficult to have a constructive discussion about this type of demo where the student is bounced back with little to no contact, or even when the connection is broken.

Perhaps I was a little riled up earlier, but it's how I always feel when I see teachers (especially those with real skill and knowledge) holding out on people while try to sell their snake oil to the public.


I knew who his teacher was, a little surprised that a native speaker would dismiss him so quickly.
I could post clips of Wang Peisheng, doing and showing the same things,,same as some of the clips of his son ect....

my point was/is that what is shown is consistent with how its explained, you a native speaker understanding what is being said I would think should be able to understand this directly in ways a non native speaker might not get.

It would have been more productive for the non native speakers to be able to listen to the theory the teacher uses to describe what he feels is happening.
If you go to Chinese web sit talking about this teacher would you also question his skill?

Not sure about you, but I personally find it difficult to have a constructive discussion about this type of demo where the student is bounced back with little to no contact, or even when the connection is broken.


if one goes back to what the teacher is saying happens. It should be clear that there is contact it wont work with out it. They question then becomes contact with what?

the teacher calls it a "field" there are words for it in Chinese. he can sense this and change it. The other reacts to the changes...
They use demos like this to make it very clear talking about the skill itself in a context that they feel illustrates very clearly.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:17 am

Who someone trained with is no identifier of their skill level or personal capability. We should NEVER assume skill based on lineage.

They question then becomes contact with what?


You know the answer to this according to your posts. So, yes, contact with what?

I am not trying to be deliberately annoying here. Its just this horse has been beaten to death to such an extent its bones are now dust!

thanks
Chris.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:22 am

middleway wrote:
s this a demo, or is it fighting?
what is being shown ?
is not the same as what the teacher had discussed?


this was not tai chi. He isnt flying away from no touch and he isnt moving without me touching him.

That picture is me demonstrating the PROBLEM with providing a line of support for the partner from the contact point to the back foot and how it makes your front foot vulnerable and light. It also was demonstrating that without an 'opposite side' your structure is very vulnerable.

It is in a totally totally different Sphere to what is being shown in the no touch stuff.



I would not agree, its the same at one level. also what the teacher shows and talks about.
He isnt flying away from no touch and he isnt moving without me touching him.


If either he or you was straight with both inner and outer alignment, and one extended this alignment from the center "field" out, they would
feel that their moving with out much outer pressure or force being used. In most cases the other person tends to lean in against what they "feel" at
contact or before its made.

The teacher talks about an inter change of this between the body, and "feeling/field"


with out understanding what is being said, most will tend to see things in their own view.
Once its either understood or has been felt it starts become a little bit more understandable.
I had hoped by having someone translate it, it might be looked at within the context of what was being said.
Instead of ones own view point.

is what is shown, whether agreed with or not, follow what is being said?
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby wiesiek on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:27 am

>field< theory is nice
and when you reach the "level" you can really feel it, no shit, :)
however
when you try throw someone using only the field, your face will connect with opponents fist, definitely... -oldman-
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:29 am

let me get this straight ... you do not agree with what i was demonstrating ... even though i was demonstrating it and it was my concept and theory for teaching? Is that what you are trying to say to me?

Everything you have said above is false. If i want to move him i don't need to extend anything anywhere i just need to change myself and he will be along for the ride. He wont feel me trying to move him he will just feel that i am not where he thinks and as he tries to adjust or catch the spiral his centre is taken. I can demonstrate this with grapplers who out weight me by 20 kgs. I do it nightly.

No fields needed.

They question then becomes contact with what?



You know the answer to this according to your posts. So, yes, contact with what?


please answer this question if you are able too.

thank you.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:29 am

Who someone trained with is no identifier of their skill level or personal capability. We should NEVER assume skill based on lineage.


But this teacher has such, anyone who was a native speaker would know if they checked.

your right this has been talked about many times, but actually not really.
It can not be talked about with out first understanding the underling theory by which the demo is based on,
no matter what ones own view points are.

he begins by saying
Need to know what "TaiChi" means in order to learn it well.
TaiChi means: "no pole" (Field/Circle/Empty) which generates "poles" (YingYang/In & out/Body).
The core of TaiChi Quan is to interchange the act of Field affecting body and body reacting to field.
Ying & Yang are two faces of one thing, cannot be separated.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:31 am

when you try throw someone using only the field, your face will connect with opponents fist, definitely...


hahaha! :D Beautifully put.
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:34 am

Everything you have said above is false. If i want to move him i don't need to extend anywhere i just need to change myself and he will be along for the ride. He wont feel me trying to move him he will just feel that i am not where he thinks and as he tries to adjust or catch the spiral his centre is taken. I can demonstrate this with grapplers who out weight me by 20 kgs. I do it nightly.

No fields needed.


if not fields are needed what is it that he is thinking about?
what is the center or spiral that your talking about is it physical or something felt?
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:40 am

It is physical. Like trying to grip a slowly turning corkscrew. The corkscrew is physical, the hand is physical, the action to grip is physical, but as soon as you do grip it you either get dragged along with strange ever changing angulation or have to adjust your grip. The feedback and lag of reaction behind the action is also physical. The thoughts and perceptions can also be classed as physical.

So i ask again.

What is the Field? What is it that the partner is interacting with?
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:41 am

wiesiek wrote:>field< theory is nice
and when you reach the "level" you can really feel it, no shit, :)
however
when you try throw someone using only the field, your face will connect with opponents fist, definitely... -oldman-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4GjJk9TkLc

yep ;)
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Re: master Gao Zhuangfei

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:43 am

The corkscrew is physical, the hand is physical,


the thought that moves the hand is not.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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