advanced budo

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:30 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Bodywork wrote:Imagine if you will, my knowing several teachers who Tony ripped off by
a Promising them non disclosure
b. They let down their guard and share things
c. He breaks his word/ agreement
d. He makes and sells videos of things he cannot do, all while quoting things he swore not to discuss.


I knew there was an issue with Tony and Don Angier several years back, but didn't realize it was more than an honest mistake or part of a trend.

It was far worse than that.
Now add a very good friend from Daito ryu to the list of others.
Imagine me sitting here hearing their words, out of his mouth. You discuss integrity as something important to you. If it is, then you have to be that way consistently.

As for me, if we could have Rich place competent people up I would respond differently. There are many great Japanese artists. I'm not quite the asshole you imagine me to be. I don't really take pleasure in pkssing people off either. I think the hard edge comes from calling bullshit on stuff that truly is, and wondering why that is what people frequently put up to discuss.
Last edited by Bodywork on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Ah Louis on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:46 am

Tom wrote:
Rabbit wrote:Careful - If you are seen to be 'pestering' Dan you could get threatened with a ban yourself, Like I did :-\


Specifically, you were asked to stop diverting the thread about aikido with pestering and badgering Dan Harden about his martial arts training background, as was Ah Louis.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24114&start=90&sid=aec6d118071ab79a7e85a6b51777a27c

Folks who are obsessed with pestering Dan about his background, please use PMs to correspond with Dan and stop using this forum for your personal trolling agenda. If Ah Louis (John Pearson) or Rabbit insist on continuing the diversion and badger routine, they will be banned.

Thank you.


Engage each other on the topic of the thread. Dan's training background was not the topic of the Aikido thread. That is why off-topic posts, including Dan's, were moved to another thread of their own in BTDT. If you can't understand that, then maybe you don't really belong on a discussion forum. Ah Louis decided he didn't like the company here or the reception he was getting and left. That's called freedom of choice. We don't need more members at RSF because we are not a commercial venue. What we need are members who can understand the difference between engaging on a topic or line of discussion and trolling.

RSF is very laissez-faire with respect to moderation, in large part because the people who do it (we are legion) are volunteers. We've had far more people leave RSF on their own complaining about the lack of moderation--recognized, highly-skilled martial artists--than we have had complain about too much moderation and control.

Now let's talk about Dan Harden, since that is what you seem to want to do. Does he come across posting here as bombastic and bludgeoning, even bullying? Well yes actually sometimes he does. He's been told that. In the past Dan's been warned more than once about the possibility of being banned from RSF. Lots of people don't like Dan's online style. Lots of those same people refuse or are not able to engage with Dan on the specific martial arts points he raises because they are distressed or feel they are somehow the target of Dan's clumsy bulldozer tone of voice or--most typically--they lack the training and combative intelligence to engage the specific points about training or body usage or fighting application he raises.

Or because Dan makes sweeping generalizations then fails to supply specific supporting analysis and examples/evidence. Yeah, it happens. Somebody like Brian (Hassler) calls Dan on it . . . with a specific and fair critique . . . about the topic of the post or thread at issue. Dan then responds with a more detailed set of points. Now maybe there is agreement afterwards, maybe not. Dialectic does not always result in consensus. The point is that Brian can call Dan out (rhetorically) about something Dan has posted. Brian doesn't get warned about it by moderators. Why not? Because his points in this respect are well-considered and generally valid. And he tends to get a clearer response from Dan as a result. Learn from that.

Brian's posts on this thread ("advanced budo") raise an important aspect of RSF, which remains one of the longest-running and most resilient online MA discussion communities. Since he writes more clearly about this self-policing than I could, I will quote Brian's post (addressed to Dan) from earlier in this thread:

The mods do a great job of providing this great space for free and I believe most of us are and should be greatful for all they do. However, there's nothing wrong with the community policing itself, and if someone wants to pop in and create unproductive conflict all the time, maybe members of the community should speak up and say it's not appreciated. I, for one, do not appreciate your negativity and superior attitude when you have done nothing on the forum to justify any of it. Write a cogent argument, or post a video, or do something that contributes to the appreciation of IMA as it is expressed on the forum. This is a discussion forum, and if your legendary exploits on the streets or on the mats don't contribute to the discussion, they're meaningless here.

The corollary, of course, is that members can also police themselves, thinking about what they post and its impact on the thread they are posting on--before they actually post it.

At what point do posts objecting to a particular member's style and not relating specifically to the topic of a thread reach critical mass for separating those posts from the thread and dropping them in a steaming pile beside the trail? Has that happened here on the "advanced budo" thread? Possibly, probably . . . but only if a moderator jumps and decides to do it. That's RSF. Moderators here don't always agree on when or how to take moderation action; that's RSF. Moderation is inconsistent; that's RSF. Moderation doesn't always satisfy everyone and rarely satisfies anyone; that's RSF. The moderators here all have many more and far better things to do with their time and energy than babysit bruised egos and educate adults on how to discuss topics online; yes, even I do.

Harden the fuck up. Don't post anything you wouldn't be willing to say in person. Be willing to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous posts by others--because you will suffer them. Don't whine about the shortcomings of moderators: you are responsible for your participation here. Don't post if you don't feel respected. Don't read RSF if you don't find what you want here. Look in the bloody mirror: you've got better things to do than get depressed because someone called you a troll. Ten months or ten years from now, none of this will matter. In the long run none of this will matter at all. What will matter in the interim is what, how and why you train--if you train.

Enough of this bullshit. What is Tony Annesi doing that is advanced budo? Why is what Tony Annesi shows on the videos not advanced budo? Stealing and making a profit from others' teachings is the act of an asshole . . . but are the teachings being misrepresented? Is the technique shown invalid? How is it invalid? What makes a valid technique? Why is it more valid?


Tom wrote:
Rabbit wrote:Careful - If you are seen to be 'pestering' Dan you could get threatened with a ban yourself, Like I did :-\


Specifically, you were asked to stop diverting the thread about aikido with pestering and badgering Dan Harden about his martial arts training background, as was Ah Louis.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24114&start=90&sid=aec6d118071ab79a7e85a6b51777a27c

Folks who are obsessed with pestering Dan about his background, please use PMs to correspond with Dan and stop using this forum for your personal trolling agenda. If Ah Louis (John Pearson) or Rabbit insist on continuing the diversion and badger routine, they will be banned.

Thank you.


Engage each other on the topic of the thread. Dan's training background was not the topic of the Aikido thread. That is why off-topic posts, including Dan's, were moved to another thread of their own in BTDT. If you can't understand that, then maybe you don't really belong on a discussion forum. Ah Louis decided he didn't like the company here or the reception he was getting and left. That's called freedom of choice. We don't need more members at RSF because we are not a commercial venue. What we need are members who can understand the difference between engaging on a topic or line of discussion and trolling.

RSF is very laissez-faire with respect to moderation, in large part because the people who do it (we are legion) are volunteers. We've had far more people leave RSF on their own complaining about the lack of moderation--recognized, highly-skilled martial artists--than we have had complain about too much moderation and control.

Now let's talk about Dan Harden, since that is what you seem to want to do. Does he come across posting here as bombastic and bludgeoning, even bullying? Well yes actually sometimes he does. He's been told that. In the past Dan's been warned more than once about the possibility of being banned from RSF. Lots of people don't like Dan's online style. Lots of those same people refuse or are not able to engage with Dan on the specific martial arts points he raises because they are distressed or feel they are somehow the target of Dan's clumsy bulldozer tone of voice or--most typically--they lack the training and combative intelligence to engage the specific points about training or body usage or fighting application he raises.

Or because Dan makes sweeping generalizations then fails to supply specific supporting analysis and examples/evidence. Yeah, it happens. Somebody like Brian (Hassler) calls Dan on it . . . with a specific and fair critique . . . about the topic of the post or thread at issue. Dan then responds with a more detailed set of points. Now maybe there is agreement afterwards, maybe not. Dialectic does not always result in consensus. The point is that Brian can call Dan out (rhetorically) about something Dan has posted. Brian doesn't get warned about it by moderators. Why not? Because his points in this respect are well-considered and generally valid. And he tends to get a clearer response from Dan as a result. Learn from that.

Brian's posts on this thread ("advanced budo") raise an important aspect of RSF, which remains one of the longest-running and most resilient online MA discussion communities. Since he writes more clearly about this self-policing than I could, I will quote Brian's post (addressed to Dan) from earlier in this thread:

The mods do a great job of providing this great space for free and I believe most of us are and should be greatful for all they do. However, there's nothing wrong with the community policing itself, and if someone wants to pop in and create unproductive conflict all the time, maybe members of the community should speak up and say it's not appreciated. I, for one, do not appreciate your negativity and superior attitude when you have done nothing on the forum to justify any of it. Write a cogent argument, or post a video, or do something that contributes to the appreciation of IMA as it is expressed on the forum. This is a discussion forum, and if your legendary exploits on the streets or on the mats don't contribute to the discussion, they're meaningless here.

The corollary, of course, is that members can also police themselves, thinking about what they post and its impact on the thread they are posting on--before they actually post it.

At what point do posts objecting to a particular member's style and not relating specifically to the topic of a thread reach critical mass for separating those posts from the thread and dropping them in a steaming pile beside the trail? Has that happened here on the "advanced budo" thread? Possibly, probably . . . but only if a moderator jumps and decides to do it. That's RSF. Moderators here don't always agree on when or how to take moderation action; that's RSF. Moderation is inconsistent; that's RSF. Moderation doesn't always satisfy everyone and rarely satisfies anyone; that's RSF. The moderators here all have many more and far better things to do with their time and energy than babysit bruised egos and educate adults on how to discuss topics online; yes, even I do.

Harden the fuck up. Don't post anything you wouldn't be willing to say in person. Be willing to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous posts by others--because you will suffer them. Don't whine about the shortcomings of moderators: you are responsible for your participation here. Don't post if you don't feel respected. Don't read RSF if you don't find what you want here. Look in the bloody mirror: you've got better things to do than get depressed because someone called you a troll. Ten months or ten years from now, none of this will matter. In the long run none of this will matter at all. What will matter in the interim is what, how and why you train--if you train.

Enough of this bullshit. What is Tony Annesi doing that is advanced budo? Why is what Tony Annesi shows on the videos not advanced budo? Stealing and making a profit from others' teachings is the act of an asshole . . . but are the teachings being misrepresented? Is the technique shown invalid? How is it invalid? What makes a valid technique? Why is it more valid?


For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby allen2saint on Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:52 am

Tom,

I respect you, but I think this conflict does point to an issue here at RSF, which may be a crossroads for the site. Moderation is a chore and an unsung heroism of forums, but at times here, I believe more diligent moderation would help make the site more inviting and increase participation.

I've left sites related to what I love because the site started eating its own tail, with the regulars engaging in more and more long standing bitter feuds and people being able to insult, PM and harass anyone they chose because of the "hands off" nature of moderating. I think it limits the site and makes it impossible for it to grow. How to strike the balance between "banter by people who hit people for fun" and making the place a sanitized Disney Land, is definitely a challenge, but maybe its worth a look.

I read from the posts about the interactions with Dan that reference was made to "if people knew what Dan knew, etc" and my response to that is that I don't care if "RSF Poster X" has mastered Aikijitsu, Savate and Bartending, a code of conduct for RSF, loose as it may be, should apply to everyone, regardless of what they know.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:40 am

Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby GrahamB on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:51 am

Tom wrote:
Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.


Ha ha ;D That's awesome - he left so hard he actually came back ;D
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:59 am

That's interesting Allen. As has been continuously brought up: I discuss, and one could rightly argue -challenge- people that they don't understand the higher level work we should all be pursuing if we use the name internal. But while I challenge the work I don't insult personally. In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally.
What usually follows is a string of personal slights, insults, discussing my motives, my background, my dogs lineage and my parenting abilities...
All while not actually discussing a thing I said. Many times the reason is obvious, they actually don't know what I am talking about. In the case of the figure eight thread it was the internal figure rather than external form... I've not met a westerner yet who can define, defend mechanically and perform this function. So the next course of action? If you don't know... Attack.

Recently, I have been accused of not offering information. Yet, there are a series of posts I have made over the years discussing details of movement that are left unanswered.
I mentioned this in this thread and it was ignored.
No doubt there are personal insults going on... But they are not from me.
Knowledge, skill and true ability or lack thereof is matter of fact and not personal.

Last, I am here answering because I actually do care that *some* people feel insulted. But my email and inbox shows it is only... some.
Last edited by Bodywork on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby RobP2 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:09 am

Bodywork wrote: In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally. .


Not me. I just pointed out where you misquoted me / put words into my mouth etc etc
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:18 am

RobP2 wrote:
Bodywork wrote: In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally. .


Not me. I just pointed out where you misquoted me / put words into my mouth etc etc

Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.

Oddly isn't a teacher putting out video and charging monthly fees sort of THEE definition of fishing for students. Not that there is anything at all wrong with that. I'd just sort of ignorant to adopt that to me.
I've closed two successful schools in order to train harder.
I don't do video
I refuse students,
teach in my dojo for free.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby RobP2 on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:27 am

Bodywork wrote:Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.


No, but you have said in the recent past systema is not a Russian martial art, one of my teachers is a liar, you can "take apart" systema guys with ease, "Fig 8" guys have no power etc etc. Water off a ducks back, but let's be consistent shall we?
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:58 am

allen2saint wrote: . . . . this conflict does point to an issue here at RSF, which may be a crossroads for the site. Moderation is a chore and an unsung heroism of forums, but at times here, I believe more diligent moderation would help make the site more inviting and increase participation.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd60nI4sa9A

The metaphorical crossroads you allude to has been characteristic of RSF since its inception. Members come, members go. People participate, or not, by their own choice. The forum remains the same. We aren't seeking to make the site more inviting or less inviting or to increase or decrease participation. RSF is here. If someone wants to participate, fine. If they don't, then stay off the forum. It really is that simple.

Moderators participate by their own choice too. I took a few weeks off in November and came back to see this thread and the aikido thread. I took action because I think at its historical core aikido is or was a viable martial art and didn't want to see that particular topic get buried by the badgering and diversion. I acted to save the topic, not any of the posters on the topic. Other topics I don't care about, or don't see, or don't want to give the time and energy to moderation. But one thing you will always see if I take moderating action is my shit-stained footprints heading to unblock the plumbing after wading through the metaphorical shit of inter member conflict on one of these threads. Because I always moderate under my own name. There may not be much other apparent moderation because the moderators don't enjoy doing it. It's like wading through a sewage backup in a studio apartment in Brooklyn. We'd much rather you plunge your own toilet.

In the instant case, I have no idea what "advanced budo" means and it's not a topic I care about. I also don't particularly care what fresh steaming load Dan may pull in to dump on this or other threads. He's been coming on RSF for more than seven years and I long ago ceased to expect any kind of detailed exposition of his ideas or training methods here. It's up to Dan to decide what he wants to share, and it's up to other members to pay attention to him or not, to challenge him on his sweeping generalizations and lack of detail or not. Why then am I on this thread? The subject of moderation came up and that is something I do care something about and I want to manage members' expectations on this issue. The act of a third party moderating on a discussion forum is incredibly condescending, both to the posters and to the moderator. This is a forum for civil discourse, but it relies on members to self-police, as Brian alluded to earlier. He does a fine job of offering critique and defending his own position and is a good example for RSF members. Don't expect much if any external moderation from the staff here at RSF. You are adults. Your participation here is by choice, your advocacy and defense of positions is in your own hands, just like your martial training.

Will Dan get moderated in the future? The full range of moderator actions is available, from self-policing to a ban. But it probably won't be me, because I really enjoyed the time off I took from RSF and am going to be doing a lot more of it in the future. More likely it will be self-policing or one of the several other moderators behind the green curtain. Or perhaps nothing at all.

And RSF will go on, as it has for 16 years and will continue as long as the Wizard continues to pay ISP costs. It doesn't cost members anything to participate, and it doesn't cost anyone anything to not participate.

Cheers.

[edited one time to correct spelling]
Last edited by Tom on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Ah Louis on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:17 am

Tom wrote:
Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.


I didn't say, I wasn't coming back. It was kind of you to mention why I left. As a result, I felt, I owed it to the membership to point out the reasons why I felt the need to walk away. Rather than laying out a laundry list of complaints. Doing that would have caused unproductive comments and posts. I should have given clearer explanation with reasons for me stepping away.

I apology for the double quoting it was not intended. It was a mechanical error on my part.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby allen2saint on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 am

Dan,

I don't think the tone of my posts are very prosecutorial so there's no need to defend yourself so adamantly. Has anyone here been immune from unfairness or personal attacks? No. So why are you using that as some kind of argument? I take you at your word and believe you've got something. I've read your explanations. I think some here wish you would "show" rather than tell. I didn't request either. I said as long as you are so adamant about your positions and critical of others, you will get flack. That's group dynamics in a nutshell.

But as far as saying you do not personally attack people? Hard to define "personally" but I think an honest self assess would show you that you are harsh and accusatory about people and their knowledge, sometimes without knowing the background of the person you say "doesn't know anything."

All I can say is, coming from a profession and a world where personal points of view sadly reign supreme and bitter disputes among experts is so legendary it has its own saying( "The hatred of theologians"), I have never seen a time or place where these bitter disputes help anyone or a situation when person who knows more gains anything by lording it over others. Those that learn from you will and the rest are best passed over, IMO, because they serve their own private and personal MA gods( which are usually personal for all the wrong reasons, just like the religious gods) and they aren't about to be swayed, least of all by being told they're morons.

I think internet forums become closed off, weird places where insults and arguments take over, and people become self indulgent unless it is managed correctly. I am as guilty of that as anyone and I hope I am not doing so now. Just offering a point of view.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:26 am

RobP2 wrote:
Bodywork wrote:Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.


No, but you have said in the recent past systema is not a Russian martial art, one of my teachers is a liar, you can "take apart" systema guys with ease, "Fig 8" guys have no power etc etc. Water off a ducks back, but let's be consistent shall we?

I said those in Russia.. in the Russian arts, said that.. They also said Systema isn't old either. Ryobkov invented it. Vlad has answered direct questions on this with teachers. What's the big deal? He rocks and the art is solid.

Systema, like any art, is only as combatively viable as any single person makes it. Personally I think Systema is way bigger than hand to hand combat. Which was Vlads answer to five teachers that I took apart. And Again you misquote me. I said what I did. Taking apart 5 people is not saying I can take apart... systema teachers.
No art can be judged by a small segment of practitioners. I am informed there are some very capable men who are good at hand to hand in systema, others are not. What else is new. Also as Vlad said... you should focus on the complete art, not the components.
I know never said figure eight guys have no power since there is no such thing as figure eight guys to begin with.
External figure eight movement is not As powerful or disruptive but so what? Fighting is fighting and an external guy will kick the shit out an internal guy I'd the latter can't fight.
Last as it still evades what was evaded...
No one addressed WHAT I said did they? Why?
Because you and all the others didn't know, and still don't know what an internal figure eight movement is. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But that was my only point going in.
I'm not going to comment on the video accept to say there is a figure eight model is for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body without a change or stopping point. Albeit empty hand or continuous cutting with weapons, it is a powerful tool. Many have heard of it and talked about it. It is VERY difficult to do and requires certain body parts to be highly trained. This video has nothing to do with that saught after skill.
Last edited by Bodywork on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:27 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Tom wrote:
Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.


I didn't say, I wasn't coming back. . . . .


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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:31 am

allen2saint wrote:Just offering a point of view.


And that is all any of us do here. This would be a better place and we would live in a better world if more adults understood this.
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