advanced budo

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: advanced budo

Postby Rabbit on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:39 am

Careful - If you are seen to be 'pestering' Dan you could get threatened with a ban yourself, Like I did :-\
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Re: advanced budo

Postby wiesiek on Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:26 am

what is advanced for many,
may looks pathetic from another stool... :)
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: advanced budo

Postby allen2saint on Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:09 am

Lol, thanks for considering the thoughts, Dan. Really appreciate it.

I am equally impatient in my field as you are in yours and have always had difficulty in tempering that. After I complained about the lack of professionalism of a coworker, I was pulled aside by another coworker who is closing in on 90 years old. She's traveled the world and served in very poor countries.

I kept going on and on about my other coworker's weaknesses and her lack of education and professionalism.

My mentor acknowledged my greater knowledge and skill, but shushed me right after and said sternly, "To whom much is given, much is expected."

"Punching down" to others who are less informed or less skilled doesn't do anyone any good.
Last edited by allen2saint on Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Dmitri on Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:27 am

Patrick wrote:+1 Bhassler

Some people get a free pass for their trolling.

Seriously? So instead you'd prefer this type of passive-aggressive BS:
Bhassler wrote:Gee, Danny, why don't you show us all how it should be done? Oh, right, now I remember, you like to talk shit, but you don't ever actually *do* shit. Carry on...


?

It seems very hard for some people to behave/respond like adults... :-X
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Patrick on Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:42 am

I have not much interest in being too involved in that discussion...
But bodywork gets obviouly treated differently because some people are his students or want something from him.
http://www.dhyana-fitness.at- The philosophy and practice of a healthy life
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:50 am

Dmitri wrote:
Patrick wrote:+1 Bhassler

Some people get a free pass for their trolling.

Seriously? So instead you'd prefer this type of passive-aggressive BS:
Bhassler wrote:Gee, Danny, why don't you show us all how it should be done? Oh, right, now I remember, you like to talk shit, but you don't ever actually *do* shit. Carry on...


?

It seems very hard for some people to behave/respond like adults... :-X


Actually, my comments were more aggressive-aggressive. Dan tends towards passive-aggressive. I'm always amazed that people don't see the difference, and it's a long-standing puzzle to convey nuance and anything deeper than superficial meaning via text. If it's too simple, folks miss important differentiation, and if it's too detailed people's eyes glaze over and they miss the important differentiation you spent all that time articulating.

At any rate, it's not a question of maturity, it's a question of tactics. Dan can't resist a flame war, and it was a way to elicit a conversation. I've said my piece (to very little effect, truth be told), and will proceed to take my own advice and carry on...
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:57 am

emptycloud wrote:For the record..

I generally post vids to see what people think, if anything. Many just slide down the list.

Hey, its fighting we are talking about, not exactly a great life skill to aspire to in very short life.

As for Toni Anassi... I new nothing about him, now I do because of the vid I posted. I have a kind of ramshackle research going on.

To make Dan happy I will post stuff I think to be the dogs bollocks as they say round here...and probably everywhere..


I don't have strong opinions about Toni Anassi's martial skill one way or the other, but I do think he does a nice job of breaking down what he does and articulating it so that others can add it to their own practice effectively. He seems to be very engaged in providing value with his instruction, which I think is commendable regardless of whether or not it fits anyone's particular paradigm of what the training "should" be.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:45 am

Bhassler wrote:
emptycloud wrote:For the record..

I generally post vids to see what people think, if anything. Many just slide down the list.

Hey, its fighting we are talking about, not exactly a great life skill to aspire to in very short life.

As for Toni Anassi... I new nothing about him, now I do because of the vid I posted. I have a kind of ramshackle research going on.

To make Dan happy I will post stuff I think to be the dogs bollocks as they say round here...and probably everywhere..


I don't have strong opinions about Toni Anassi's martial skill one way or the other, but I do think he does a nice job of breaking down what he does and articulating it so that others can add it to their own practice effectively. He seems to be very engaged in providing value with his instruction, which I think is commendable regardless of whether or not it fits anyone's particular paradigm of what the training "should" be.

Here again is where we cross purposes.
At the outset I never said anything about some serious shit behind the guy. Instead I said he should not be equated with advanced budo.. Please be patient and read this.
Imagine if you will, my knowing several teachers who Tony ripped off by
a Promising them non disclosure
b. They let down their guard and share things
c. He breaks his word/ agreement
d. He makes and sells videos of things he cannot do, all while quoting things he swore not to discuss.
Now imagine those men.... are your friends.
There is a reason he doesn't have a dojo anymore and just sells videos.

You must have some series of really bad ICMA teachers. Jhst truly awful. Imagine placing them on a Japanese forum and you are the only one who knows these guys are shit and not representative of good ICMA. And then some people take offense when you tell them, one video after the other that what they are watching is shitty and not good ICMA at all. Then you are asked to do an analysis of a video that is either:
*so awful you don't know where to begin,
or
*the guys is awful, is misstranslating Chinese, screwing up well known concepts and you happen to know that his skills are deplorable as well.
And
*he harmed a bunch of your friends
That is what it has been like for a series of us (yes I'm more vocal ) watching this string of the who's who of awful Japanese artists brought to us by Rich.
And that is why some very senior Japanese stylists were laughing about it at dinner. One guy said "Tony Annesi? SERIUOSLY??" And privately they are OMG, far and away more cutting than I have ever been.

You skipped over my response to your accusations wherein I include reference to many positive comments I've made about serious martial artists here. That sort of disingenuous approach defies the community building dialogue you profess to pursue here. Instead I got sophomoric insults and sarcasm. Again I talk about the video, you talk about me. Oh well.
Last edited by Bodywork on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:21 pm

Actually, Dan, you haven't said anything about the video itself this entire thread. You've said Toni sucks, you've told stories about how your mysterious high level friends agree with you, and of course you and I have had our back-and-forths, but you've made no substantive commentary on the content of the video. And yet you still frame it as if you've been trying to talk about MA this whole time and no one will let you.

I agree that I have been polemic with regards to you, and I probably need to stop. That said, anyone who's made even a passing study of rhetoric, critical reading, or the social dynamics of predatory behavior should be able to see the way you continually divert and reframe conversations to suit yourself, and the way you are continually able to straddle the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. It's classic bully stuff. I find it frustrating and frankly disappointing that it's all there in the body of your posts on RSF, and yet it continues. Obviously, we're not going to settle anything here, and folks will see whatever they want. I won't try to defend or justify my contribution to or participation in the forum over the years, as that's all there for anyone to see as well.

Maybe we should agree to let it lie and if we ever meet in person I'll be happy to tell you to fuck off to your face (and of course you're welcome to say the same to me as well).
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Dmitri on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:25 pm

Patrick wrote:some people are his students or want something from him.

Incidentally, I am neither... And nor, for that matter (and to the best of my meager knowledge), are any of the forum's admins/mods. FWIW

I really don't see Dan being treated in any special way -- there have been many posters here whose behavior could easily have been considered begging for an administrative action, and yet nothing was done about it. And IMO that's actually not a bad thing; if you ban everyone who speaks their mind in an open fashion, you'll eventually get yourself a tiny North-Korea-of-a-forum... :)
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:56 pm

Rabbit wrote:Careful - If you are seen to be 'pestering' Dan you could get threatened with a ban yourself, Like I did :-\


Specifically, you were asked to stop diverting the thread about aikido with pestering and badgering Dan Harden about his martial arts training background, as was Ah Louis.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24114&start=90&sid=6cf86afec5a3a02b19a0ff839a932dd2

Folks who are obsessed with pestering Dan about his background, please use PMs to correspond with Dan and stop using this forum for your personal trolling agenda. If Ah Louis (John Pearson) or Rabbit insist on continuing the diversion and badger routine, they will be banned.

Thank you.


Engage each other on the topic of the thread. Dan's training background was not the topic of the Aikido thread. That is why off-topic posts, including Dan's, were moved to another thread of their own in BTDT. If you can't understand that, then maybe you don't really belong on a discussion forum. Ah Louis decided he didn't like the company here or the reception he was getting and left. That's called freedom of choice. We don't need more members at RSF because we are not a commercial venue. What we need are members who can understand the difference between engaging on a topic or line of discussion and trolling.

RSF is very laissez-faire with respect to moderation, in large part because the people who do it (we are legion) are volunteers. We've had far more people leave RSF on their own complaining about the lack of moderation--recognized, highly-skilled martial artists--than we have had complain about too much moderation and control.

Now let's talk about Dan Harden, since that is what you seem to want to do. Does he come across posting here as bombastic and bludgeoning, even bullying? Well yes actually sometimes he does. He's been told that. In the past Dan's been warned more than once about the possibility of being banned from RSF. Lots of people don't like Dan's online style. Lots of those same people refuse or are not able to engage with Dan on the specific martial arts points he raises because they are distressed or feel they are somehow the target of Dan's clumsy bulldozer tone of voice or--most typically--they lack the training and combative intelligence to engage the specific points about training or body usage or fighting application he raises.

Or because Dan makes sweeping generalizations then fails to supply specific supporting analysis and examples/evidence. Yeah, it happens. Somebody like Brian (Hassler) calls Dan on it . . . with a specific and fair critique . . . about the topic of the post or thread at issue. Dan then responds with a more detailed set of points. Now maybe there is agreement afterwards, maybe not. Dialectic does not always result in consensus. The point is that Brian can call Dan out (rhetorically) about something Dan has posted. Brian doesn't get warned about it by moderators. Why not? Because his points in this respect are well-considered and generally valid. And he tends to get a clearer response from Dan as a result. Learn from that.

Brian's posts on this thread ("advanced budo") raise an important aspect of RSF, which remains one of the longest-running and most resilient online MA discussion communities. Since he writes more clearly about this self-policing than I could, I will quote Brian's post (addressed to Dan) from earlier in this thread:

The mods do a great job of providing this great space for free and I believe most of us are and should be greatful for all they do. However, there's nothing wrong with the community policing itself, and if someone wants to pop in and create unproductive conflict all the time, maybe members of the community should speak up and say it's not appreciated. I, for one, do not appreciate your negativity and superior attitude when you have done nothing on the forum to justify any of it. Write a cogent argument, or post a video, or do something that contributes to the appreciation of IMA as it is expressed on the forum. This is a discussion forum, and if your legendary exploits on the streets or on the mats don't contribute to the discussion, they're meaningless here.

The corollary, of course, is that members can also police themselves, thinking about what they post and its impact on the thread they are posting on--before they actually post it.

At what point do posts objecting to a particular member's style and not relating specifically to the topic of a thread reach critical mass for separating those posts from the thread and dropping them in a steaming pile beside the trail? Has that happened here on the "advanced budo" thread? Possibly, probably . . . but only if a moderator jumps and decides to do it. That's RSF. Moderators here don't always agree on when or how to take moderation action; that's RSF. Moderation is inconsistent; that's RSF. Moderation doesn't always satisfy everyone and rarely satisfies anyone; that's RSF. The moderators here all have many more and far better things to do with their time and energy than babysit bruised egos and educate adults on how to discuss topics online; yes, even I do.

Harden the fuck up. Don't post anything you wouldn't be willing to say in person. Be willing to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous posts by others--because you will suffer them. Don't whine about the shortcomings of moderators: you are responsible for your participation here. Don't post if you don't feel respected. Don't read RSF if you don't find what you want here. Look in the bloody mirror: you've got better things to do than get depressed because someone called you a troll. Ten months or ten years from now, none of this will matter. In the long run none of this will matter at all. What will matter in the interim is what, how and why you train--if you train.

Enough of this bullshit. What is Tony Annesi doing that is advanced budo? Why is what Tony Annesi shows on the videos not advanced budo? Stealing and making a profit from others' teachings is the act of an asshole . . . but are the teachings being misrepresented? Is the technique shown invalid? How is it invalid? What makes a valid technique? Why is it more valid?
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

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Re: advanced budo

Postby Tom on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:15 pm

Bhassler wrote:Maybe we should agree to let it lie and if we ever meet in person I'll be happy to tell you to fuck off to your face (and of course you're welcome to say the same to me as well).


I did have a beer on Sunday evening and Dan had a chardonnay and I did tell him to fuck off and we had another beer and another chardonnay and talked about other things. Dan is a big boy (well, he's svelte compared with me) and can take valid criticism just fine.

Perhaps there is not a line between perceived bullying and passionate advocacy, or bulldozer marketing and defense of a rare training paradigm. If somebody is feeling bullied, they should speak up for themselves. As for marketing . . . Dan could go offline entirely and have more than enough teaching requests to keep his calendar full.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

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Re: advanced budo

Postby Dmitri on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:24 pm

Tom wrote:As for marketing . . . Dan could go offline entirely and have more than enough teaching requests to keep his calendar full.

Heh... These "marketing" accusations always crack me up. Hell, he'd probably get MORE seminar attendees if he just went "dark" (which I hope he doesn't), since in that case maybe some of those more tender, easily-offended folks would actually consider going to one... But... oh well. Too late for that now! ;D
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:19 pm

Bodywork wrote:Imagine if you will, my knowing several teachers who Tony ripped off by
a Promising them non disclosure
b. They let down their guard and share things
c. He breaks his word/ agreement
d. He makes and sells videos of things he cannot do, all while quoting things he swore not to discuss.


I knew there was an issue with Tony and Don Angier several years back, but didn't realize it was more than an honest mistake or part of a trend.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
--Moshe Feldenkrais
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Re: advanced budo

Postby Bodywork on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:25 pm

Bhassler wrote:Actually, Dan, you haven't said anything about the video itself this entire thread. You've said Toni sucks, you've told stories about how your mysterious high level friends agree with you, and of course you and I have had our back-and-forths, but you've made no substantive commentary on the content of the video. And yet you still frame it as if you've been trying to talk about MA this whole time and no one will let you.

I agree that I have been polemic with regards to you, and I probably need to stop. That said, anyone who's made even a passing study of rhetoric, critical reading, or the social dynamics of predatory behavior should be able to see the way you continually divert and reframe conversations to suit yourself, and the way you are continually able to straddle the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior. It's classic bully stuff. I find it frustrating and frankly disappointing that it's all there in the body of your posts on RSF, and yet it continues. Obviously, we're not going to settle anything here, and folks will see whatever they want. I won't try to defend or justify my contribution to or participation in the forum over the years, as that's all there for anyone to see as well.

Maybe we should agree to let it lie and if we ever meet in person I'll be happy to tell you to fuck off to your face (and of course you're welcome to say the same to me as well).

I'll let your characterizations of me lie. Of course I don't agree. I offered counters to your points and explanations that were/are worth consideration and they were not entertained. So in reality you are not talking to me, rather getting a load off your chest and telling me off.
Since you're really not interested in what I have to say, or frankly any explanation from me what so ever, then good day.
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