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Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:52 am
by allen2saint
Tom,

I respect you, but I think this conflict does point to an issue here at RSF, which may be a crossroads for the site. Moderation is a chore and an unsung heroism of forums, but at times here, I believe more diligent moderation would help make the site more inviting and increase participation.

I've left sites related to what I love because the site started eating its own tail, with the regulars engaging in more and more long standing bitter feuds and people being able to insult, PM and harass anyone they chose because of the "hands off" nature of moderating. I think it limits the site and makes it impossible for it to grow. How to strike the balance between "banter by people who hit people for fun" and making the place a sanitized Disney Land, is definitely a challenge, but maybe its worth a look.

I read from the posts about the interactions with Dan that reference was made to "if people knew what Dan knew, etc" and my response to that is that I don't care if "RSF Poster X" has mastered Aikijitsu, Savate and Bartending, a code of conduct for RSF, loose as it may be, should apply to everyone, regardless of what they know.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:51 am
by GrahamB
Tom wrote:
Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.


Ha ha ;D That's awesome - he left so hard he actually came back ;D

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:59 am
by Bodywork
That's interesting Allen. As has been continuously brought up: I discuss, and one could rightly argue -challenge- people that they don't understand the higher level work we should all be pursuing if we use the name internal. But while I challenge the work I don't insult personally. In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally.
What usually follows is a string of personal slights, insults, discussing my motives, my background, my dogs lineage and my parenting abilities...
All while not actually discussing a thing I said. Many times the reason is obvious, they actually don't know what I am talking about. In the case of the figure eight thread it was the internal figure rather than external form... I've not met a westerner yet who can define, defend mechanically and perform this function. So the next course of action? If you don't know... Attack.

Recently, I have been accused of not offering information. Yet, there are a series of posts I have made over the years discussing details of movement that are left unanswered.
I mentioned this in this thread and it was ignored.
No doubt there are personal insults going on... But they are not from me.
Knowledge, skill and true ability or lack thereof is matter of fact and not personal.

Last, I am here answering because I actually do care that *some* people feel insulted. But my email and inbox shows it is only... some.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:09 am
by RobP2
Bodywork wrote: In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally. .


Not me. I just pointed out where you misquoted me / put words into my mouth etc etc

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:18 am
by Bodywork
RobP2 wrote:
Bodywork wrote: In fact many times, as in the figure eight, Systema thread, I refused to discuss movement, persons or anything else, and only addressed terminology. What followed was surreal. It was typical: people read me challenging some aspect of their work and THEY take it personally. .


Not me. I just pointed out where you misquoted me / put words into my mouth etc etc

Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.

Oddly isn't a teacher putting out video and charging monthly fees sort of THEE definition of fishing for students. Not that there is anything at all wrong with that. I'd just sort of ignorant to adopt that to me.
I've closed two successful schools in order to train harder.
I don't do video
I refuse students,
teach in my dojo for free.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:27 am
by RobP2
Bodywork wrote:Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.


No, but you have said in the recent past systema is not a Russian martial art, one of my teachers is a liar, you can "take apart" systema guys with ease, "Fig 8" guys have no power etc etc. Water off a ducks back, but let's be consistent shall we?

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:17 am
by Ah Louis
Tom wrote:
Ah Louis wrote: . . . .

For the record, this is exactly the reason why I left.


But you haven't left, John. You are still here and reading RSF so enthusiastically that you quoted me twice in your post.


I didn't say, I wasn't coming back. It was kind of you to mention why I left. As a result, I felt, I owed it to the membership to point out the reasons why I felt the need to walk away. Rather than laying out a laundry list of complaints. Doing that would have caused unproductive comments and posts. I should have given clearer explanation with reasons for me stepping away.

I apology for the double quoting it was not intended. It was a mechanical error on my part.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 am
by allen2saint
Dan,

I don't think the tone of my posts are very prosecutorial so there's no need to defend yourself so adamantly. Has anyone here been immune from unfairness or personal attacks? No. So why are you using that as some kind of argument? I take you at your word and believe you've got something. I've read your explanations. I think some here wish you would "show" rather than tell. I didn't request either. I said as long as you are so adamant about your positions and critical of others, you will get flack. That's group dynamics in a nutshell.

But as far as saying you do not personally attack people? Hard to define "personally" but I think an honest self assess would show you that you are harsh and accusatory about people and their knowledge, sometimes without knowing the background of the person you say "doesn't know anything."

All I can say is, coming from a profession and a world where personal points of view sadly reign supreme and bitter disputes among experts is so legendary it has its own saying( "The hatred of theologians"), I have never seen a time or place where these bitter disputes help anyone or a situation when person who knows more gains anything by lording it over others. Those that learn from you will and the rest are best passed over, IMO, because they serve their own private and personal MA gods( which are usually personal for all the wrong reasons, just like the religious gods) and they aren't about to be swayed, least of all by being told they're morons.

I think internet forums become closed off, weird places where insults and arguments take over, and people become self indulgent unless it is managed correctly. I am as guilty of that as anyone and I hope I am not doing so now. Just offering a point of view.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:26 am
by Bodywork
RobP2 wrote:
Bodywork wrote:Sure and I even embarrassingly cross referenced another thread by mistake... duh!
But I only mentioned it is not THE INTERNAL figure eight. I never discussed: the quality of what you were doing, or you as a person, your motivation for posting, your background, claim you are only fishing for students blah blah blah. In fact I refused to do so. Stranger still is that for many reasons, I like systema and support it. But... we all read the result.


No, but you have said in the recent past systema is not a Russian martial art, one of my teachers is a liar, you can "take apart" systema guys with ease, "Fig 8" guys have no power etc etc. Water off a ducks back, but let's be consistent shall we?

I said those in Russia.. in the Russian arts, said that.. They also said Systema isn't old either. Ryobkov invented it. Vlad has answered direct questions on this with teachers. What's the big deal? He rocks and the art is solid.

Systema, like any art, is only as combatively viable as any single person makes it. Personally I think Systema is way bigger than hand to hand combat. Which was Vlads answer to five teachers that I took apart. And Again you misquote me. I said what I did. Taking apart 5 people is not saying I can take apart... systema teachers.
No art can be judged by a small segment of practitioners. I am informed there are some very capable men who are good at hand to hand in systema, others are not. What else is new. Also as Vlad said... you should focus on the complete art, not the components.
I know never said figure eight guys have no power since there is no such thing as figure eight guys to begin with.
External figure eight movement is not As powerful or disruptive but so what? Fighting is fighting and an external guy will kick the shit out an internal guy I'd the latter can't fight.
Last as it still evades what was evaded...
No one addressed WHAT I said did they? Why?
Because you and all the others didn't know, and still don't know what an internal figure eight movement is. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But that was my only point going in.
I'm not going to comment on the video accept to say there is a figure eight model is for a continuous circle (spiral, really) to be occurring -within- the body without a change or stopping point. Albeit empty hand or continuous cutting with weapons, it is a powerful tool. Many have heard of it and talked about it. It is VERY difficult to do and requires certain body parts to be highly trained. This video has nothing to do with that saught after skill.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:35 am
by Ah Louis
I am not sure if some of the things here said about Tony A. would be considered slanderous. Is he a member, and he is willing to talk about what he is being accused of. Many times in our society, we throw to the side rational and logic, and other things that make up what we call justice and fairness. Only to slide into a mob mentality and knee jerk judgements. There are two sides to every story both sides should be heard. If what is said is true about Tony A., I can point to a myriad of martial arts instructors who have done the same. Martial arts is full of peer to peer, instructor to student, and business to business conflicts. Hypocrisy isn't a stranger to martial arts.

Too many people use the word Budo using it superficially. Those who do, lack the understanding and training to fully appreciated what Budo means. It is a word that runs up there with "genius" improperly used far too much.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:42 am
by Bodywork
allen2saint wrote:Dan,

I don't think the tone of my posts are very prosecutorial so there's no need to defend yourself so adamantly. Has anyone here been immune from unfairness or personal attacks? No. So why are you using that as some kind of argument? I take you at your word and believe you've got something. I've read your explanations. I think some here wish you would "show" rather than tell. I didn't request either. I said as long as you are so adamant about your positions and critical of others, you will get flack. That's group dynamics in a nutshell.

But as far as saying you do not personally attack people? Hard to define "personally" but I think an honest self assess would show you that you are harsh and accusatory about people and their knowledge, sometimes without knowing the background of the person you say "doesn't know anything."

All I can say is, coming from a profession and a world where personal points of view sadly reign supreme and bitter disputes among experts is so legendary it has its own saying( "The hatred of theologians"), I have never seen a time or place where these bitter disputes help anyone or a situation when person who knows more gains anything by lording it over others. Those that learn from you will and the rest are best passed over, IMO, because they serve their own private and personal MA gods( which are usually personal for all the wrong reasons, just like the religious gods) and they aren't about to be swayed, least of all by being told they're morons.

I think internet forums become closed off, weird places where insults and arguments take over, and people become self indulgent unless it is managed correctly. I am as guilty of that as anyone and I hope I am not doing so now. Just offering a point of view.

I may agree with all of the above. Writing is an art. Email in the work place has demonstrated quite clearly that it is not a medium most people excell in. I am without a doubt a terrible writer. Yet I get along extremely well with a myriad of people on a world stage. It is much the same for many of us. We can't express the fulness of ourselves and our lives in quickly written posts on forums.
It is ironic to read some one say "One day we may meet and I can tell you to fuck off to your face!" and then have over a 90% return rate to seminars, along with students and friends for over thirty years. Ironic being that I can attribute both.... to my writing. But the latter... to what I can do and teach. Perhaps one day my writing skills will catch up.

Re: advanced budo

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:15 pm
by Dmitri
GROUP HUG! ;D

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