more advanced budo..

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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:16 am

Bodywork wrote:
Finny wrote:Ah Louis - note Dan wrote kenjutsu, not kendo. Kendo is a rather uniform art, being governed by one (maybe two, can't remember) mega-organisation.

As in CMA, JMA ain't JMA. By that I mean, most here would happily dismiss the opinion/performance of someone highly ranked in say, Shaolin-do.. and listen intently to the opinion/advice of someone who has spent a decade traveling and studying shaolin lohan.

How would a newbie be able to distinguish or understand the difference in attitudes taken without the experience or background to know the reasons for it.. they can't.

There are people who are highly ranked in arts that the informed laughingly deride - who should be ignored or scoffed at.

Similarly there are unranked people who have spent decades learning legit skills. Only experience and research can provide the ability to make an accurate determination of which is which.

Just something to consider..

+100
And sadly so.
It shouldn't be this way, but I suspect it always has been. Such as Musashi whiping the floor with so many "Masters" and he had no rank.
The founder of sooo many JMA koryu held no rank.
Takeda Sokaku held no rank.
I would love to quote what various Shihans have said about the state of aiki in Daito ryu and Aikido after meeting me, but I won't.
People with limited minds, limit themselves to rank. Then... they get taken apart and its really all they have left. The smart ones change, but there are no end of dumb asses who cling to it. They have to. It's all they ever had.

The hardest thing to face in budo is to account for *yourself* against capable men who don't give a shit about your rank.



Um Dan, my friend. Takeda Sokaku did have rank. He was a samurai, who refused to be anything thing else during the start of the Meijin restoration, a warrior out of time. Takeda was school trained and given credentials in the arts he studied. Kenjutsu, Daito ryu and Sumo he didn't, he was trained by his father in that. Who was ranked and more than likely was qualified to teach.

Musashi's kenjutsu style was of the Yoshioka Clan part of the Kyohachiryu. One of the eight major kenjutsu styles in Kyoto. The swordsmen of the Yoshioka Clan had been instructors for the powerful Ashikaga Family for four generations.

This is a very famous fight where Musashi killed Yoshioka Seijuro. He was a master of the Yoshioka School and head of the Yoshioka family. The fight was outside of Rendaiji Temple in Northern Kyoto on March 8, 1604. Musashi's killed Yoshioka.

Then there was Yoshioka Denshichiro the second head of the family Yoshioka, who also was trained and schooled.

Then there was the 12 year old or so, Yoshioka Matashichiro duel where Musashi charged and beheaded the kid. So I guess the kid doesn't count. He never lived long enough to qualify.

And this is the same for all the other 57 duels Mushashi had. All ranked, qualified and well trained instructors of students. Like Musashi.

People always fall into that myth of "so and so" [great martial artists] didn't have rank or qualifications. But, the truth is they did. They had koryu and not Jigoro Kano system credentials.
Ah Louis

 

Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:55 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Bodywork wrote:
Finny wrote:Ah Louis - note Dan wrote kenjutsu, not kendo. Kendo is a rather uniform art, being governed by one (maybe two, can't remember) mega-organisation.

As in CMA, JMA ain't JMA. By that I mean, most here would happily dismiss the opinion/performance of someone highly ranked in say, Shaolin-do.. and listen intently to the opinion/advice of someone who has spent a decade traveling and studying shaolin lohan.

How would a newbie be able to distinguish or understand the difference in attitudes taken without the experience or background to know the reasons for it.. they can't.

There are people who are highly ranked in arts that the informed laughingly deride - who should be ignored or scoffed at.

Similarly there are unranked people who have spent decades learning legit skills. Only experience and research can provide the ability to make an accurate determination of which is which.

Just something to consider..

+100
And sadly so.
It shouldn't be this way, but I suspect it always has been. Such as Musashi whiping the floor with so many "Masters" and he had no rank.
The founder of sooo many JMA koryu held no rank.
Takeda Sokaku held no rank.
I would love to quote what various Shihans have said about the state of aiki in Daito ryu and Aikido after meeting me, but I won't.
People with limited minds, limit themselves to rank. Then... they get taken apart and its really all they have left. The smart ones change, but there are no end of dumb asses who cling to it. They have to. It's all they ever had.

The hardest thing to face in budo is to account for *yourself* against capable men who don't give a shit about your rank.



Um Dan, my friend. Takeda Sokaku did have rank. He was a samurai, who refused to be anything thing else during the start of the Meijin restoration, a warrior out of time. Takeda was school trained and given credentials in the arts he studied. Kenjutsu, Daito ryu and Sumo he didn't, he was trained by his father in that. Who was ranked and more than likely was qualified to teach.

Musashi's kenjutsu style was of the Yoshioka Clan part of the Kyohachiryu. One of the eight major kenjutsu styles in Kyoto. The swordsmen of the Yoshioka Clan had been instructors for the powerful Ashikaga Family for four generations.

This is a very famous fight where Musashi killed Yoshioka Seijuro. He was a master of the Yoshioka School and head of the Yoshioka family. The fight was outside of Rendaiji Temple in Northern Kyoto on March 8, 1604. Musashi's killed Yoshioka.

Then there was Yoshioka Denshichiro the second head of the family Yoshioka, who also was trained and schooled.

Then there was the 12 year old or so, Yoshioka Matashichiro duel where Musashi charged and beheaded the kid. So I guess the kid doesn't count. He never lived long enough to qualify.

And this is the same for all the other 57 duels Mushashi had. All ranked, qualified and well trained instructors of students. Like Musashi.

People always fall into that myth of "so and so" [great martial artists] didn't have rank or qualifications. But, the truth is they did. They had koryu and not Jigoro Kano system credentials.

John
Don't call me friend. I both cherish and value that distinction and it is earned.
You need a history lesson, as it is you who are into "myths"
*Samurai is not a rank
*Takeda self-admittedly had none, nor ever produced any. Your history of Takeda is seriously flawed to outright fabrication.
*Musashi self-admittedly had none nor ever produced any
As for those high ranked people he supposedly killed?
*Well, on the one hand that sort of makes my point doesn't it? On the other, you are wrong about that as well.
*As for your other assertions of myth surrounding arts invented by no rank people. You need to check that as well. You are provably wrong.
There are ryu that claim origins from Gods and Tengu. Why? Because in a culture that stresses group think, it was the only way to legitimize originality and invention. I have a library full of PHD research into the real budo situation from Sengoku Jidai till now. Through painstaking research it disproves most of the nonsense -to include the idea of the Katana as nothing more than a rarely used side arm- in the vaunted land of the sword as well as most of the koryu ever having anything to do with training active bushi. Many were anachronisms in there own time. Again there is a significant body of work supporting this. Since that is the case, the entirety of your argument goes out the window at its inception.

I remain, as unmoved by your talking points as I suspect I would be by your actual presence.

And none of which addresses the real point here. Advanced budo being, skill, vetted by rank. Skill is skill. rank in art holds no promise of anything useful.
To automatically assign skill to rank is the epitome of stupidity. Particularly when it continues to taken apart on a regular basis around the world.
Anyway, I just woke up to pee and saw your reply, off to bed.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:09 am

My friend, Dan. Samurai is a rank with all that is afforded to it, again we an not talking about Jigoro Kano's system. Rather the koryu system of which Kano based his modern ranking system. Being trained in a koryu for over 30 years, teaches you allot. But one of my kohai, is a walking data base. I am not. My rank is partly tied to the Kano system and the Koryu system. The Japanese they never throw anything out. It can make things complicated, but I respect them for it. Anyway, I am not intending to convince you of anything. I am not out to impress anyone with my actual presence, that is silly, big guy. I am discussing my background, I have provenance. Why should I be ashamed of it, because others don't? I have an organization, a well respected and authentic one that recognizes what I have learned. And what they taught me. I am comfortable with taking about it. I feel no rancor with it. I think it helps when we talk about Budo. Or when I use the words, mudansha, koryu, bugei, bujutsu, etc. People know I have experience and training, and not simply just academic study that stands behind me. And they know it is quality (Ivy League) training. I have the book smarts too, of course. I got the Japanese culture academic college classes. I did my own research at the university working closely with the Asian studies dept too. Asian studies isn't what I got my degree in. I will tell you that now, honestly and openly. Even though most people think I do. Right now, I am just sharing stuff. I am being open and honest about my background, laying it out on the table. Letting people know I can talk budo/shop. And by my sensei and other top shihans definition as they live it, budo ain't what most people think it is. It isn't something as simple as a thesis statement. Budo as they define it, is one hell of a disciplined life style. That is the first layer of the onion, my friend.

Don't you love your prostrate. Remember when you could sleep through the night without getting up to pee once.


Seriously, you have a Happy and Wonderful Holiday, and may your training in 2016 be the best.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:30 am

Ah Louis wrote:My friend, Dan. Samurai is a rank with all that is afforded to it, again we an not talking about Jigoro Kano's system. Rather the koryu system of which Kano based his modern ranking system. Being trained in a koryu for over 30 years, teaches you allot. But one of my kohai, is a walking data base. I am not. My rank is partly tied to the Kano system and the Koryu system. The Japanese they never throw anything out. It can make things complicated, but I respect them for it. Anyway, I am not intending to convince you of anything. I am not out to impress anyone with my actual presence, that is silly, big guy. I am discussing my background, I have provenance. Why should I be ashamed of it, because others don't? I have an organization, a well respected and authentic one that recognizes what I have learned. And what they taught me. I am comfortable with taking about it. I feel no rancor with it. I think it helps when we talk about Budo. Or when I use the words, mudansha, koryu, bugei, bujutsu, etc. People know I have experience and training, and not simply just academic study that stands behind me. And they know it is quality (Ivy League) training. I have the book smarts too, of course. I got the Japanese culture academic college classes. I did my own research at the university working closely with the Asian studies dept too. Asian studies isn't what I got my degree in. I will tell you that now, honestly and openly. Even though most people think I do. Right now, I am just sharing stuff. I am being open and honest about my background, laying it out on the table. Letting people know I can talk budo/shop. And by my sensei and other top shihans definition as they live it, budo ain't what most people think it is. It isn't something as simple as a thesis statement. Budo as they define it, is one hell of a disciplined life style. That is the first layer of the onion, my friend.

Don't you love your prostrate. Remember when you could sleep through the night without getting up to pee once.


Seriously, you have a Happy and Wonderful Holiday, and may your training in 2016 be the best.

You've said nothing about your back ground while hounding me for the same. That makes you, according to your own standards, incredulous. Kano and Koryu? Whether you are Soshuishitsu ryu or some other invention means beans to me. Your facts are a disaster. Magnificently so. As Mark Twain opined "Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story."
I assumed better of you at the outset. Then...you made the classic mistake of showing your hand, by opening your mouth. In this case, writing this suburban white boy, samu-eye myth, trash. You have disqualified yourself from further discussion with me.
Good bye
P.S. its a prostate not a prostrate (that's being horizontal), A distinction indicative of the quality of your other so called, research.
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Marko on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:37 am

Ah Louis wrote:Samurai is a rank with all that is afforded to it, again we an not talking about Jigoro Kano's system. Rather the koryu system of which Kano based his modern ranking system.


Ah Louis, can you tell me which koryu art uses a social class as a rank? I know of several different koryu ranking systems, but I've never seen/heard of any that elevates you to the samurai class as a school rank.

All best,
Marko
Last edited by Marko on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:46 am

Marko can you believe this? I am reminded of an aikido Shihan, incensed at the on line commentary of a guy who challenged him. He flew to meet him and confront him.
His Mom answered the door. "Can I help you?"
He was thirteen years old.
True story.
I just realized what and who I've been debating with. Anyone who has to repeat his rank "qualifications" over and over is as fragile as we assumed. At least talk about what you've done and with whom.
And FWIW, Tom called it at dinner. Nailed it. I hate that guy!!!
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Marko on Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:14 am

You're right. I feel for the guy, though. He's been obviously had by this "Ivy League" school.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Finny on Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:58 am

Ah Louis wrote:
Finny wrote:Ah Louis - note Dan wrote kenjutsu, not kendo. Kendo is a rather uniform art, being governed by one (maybe two, can't remember) mega-organisation.

As in CMA, JMA ain't JMA. By that I mean, most here would happily dismiss the opinion/performance of someone highly ranked in say, Shaolin-do.. and listen intently to the opinion/advice of someone who has spent a decade traveling and studying shaolin lohan.

How would a newbie be able to distinguish or understand the difference in attitudes taken without the experience or background to know the reasons for it.. they can't.

There are people who are highly ranked in arts that the informed laughingly deride - who should be ignored or scoffed at.

Similarly there are unranked people who have spent decades learning legit skills. Only experience and research can provide the ability to make an accurate determination of which is which.

Just something to consider..


My dear Finny, may I be kind enough to suggest further study into the academics, terminology, as well as language usage related to Japanese budo. I could help you.

Also kind sir, I am really not good at hunting down clips on Youtube of people to sort out. I do associate with legit quality martial arts who are recognized, and sought after. They have the proven and time tested knowledge, abilities and skills. Martial artist that have sound and qualified credentials. Artist which I have been privileged to train with and under. I too have legit credentials that reflect the standards of the schools I am trained in. I am certified by a top well respected and recognized school with high standards. Those standards are a reflection of myself. FWIW, we can call it an Ivy league school of martial arts. The other schools I have been certified in are not Ivy League, more like high school. I thought all I need to make my way in the martial arts world was a per se high school diploma. I was young, and didn't know any better. I didn't care about all that stuff. I was green and myopic in my youth, who isn't. Most of us are. As time when on, and the more schools I trained in it became evident to me, all that stuff does matter.

Like I couldn't walk into a gym and start a self defense class without people asking me all that stuff. Other martial artists judged me buy that stuff, and I them. It doesn't end there, I can't tell you how many times I am asked all that stuff. That stuff matters, it is currency. Maybe not to you. But, a hell of lot of other people all that stuff does matters. It matters a lot. Martial arts is no different in this regard than any other profession.

I simply don't have the interest or the time to spend hunting down and discussing other people on Youtube.

You and yours have a happy holiday


interesting.. how exactly could you help me? How have I misused any budo terminology in my post Mr Louis? The condescending tone contributes nothing to this conversation.

I note above that you say you haven't studied Asian studies.. I have. I am a member of a koryu, and understand the language and terminology fine, thank you.

On the other hand, you seem to have completely missed the point of my post, which was written in plain English. Perhaps you should re-read it. I made no mention of 'finding different YouTube clips' or any such nonsense. I was trying to point out that, outside the realm of fairly uniform and thoroughly controlled gendai budo like kendo, the ability to distinguish quality from garbage relies on experience. Also, for a variety of reasons, rank itself is sometimes not indicative - again a case-by-case issue which requires experience to identify.

Again perhaps, an example may help to illustrate my point - there are 15th dan 'masters' of a well-known school of 'ninjutsu'.. with a decade or so training in that rubbish.. who are seemingly 'high-ranked'. Then there are decades-long students of well respected koryu without any formal rank. Which would you rather listen to?

To summarise my point - of course rank is important - lineage perhaps moreso. But it must be seen in context.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Finny on Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:07 am

Ah Louis wrote:My friend, Dan. Samurai is a rank with all that is afforded to it, again we an not talking about Jigoro Kano's system. Rather the koryu system of which Kano based his modern ranking system. Being trained in a koryu for over 30 years, teaches you allot. But one of my kohai, is a walking data base. I am not. My rank is partly tied to the Kano system and the Koryu system. The Japanese they never throw anything out. It can make things complicated, but I respect them for it. Anyway, I am not intending to convince you of anything. I am not out to impress anyone with my actual presence, that is silly, big guy. I am discussing my background, I have provenance. Why should I be ashamed of it, because others don't? I have an organization, a well respected and authentic one that recognizes what I have learned. And what they taught me. I am comfortable with taking about it. I feel no rancor with it. I think it helps when we talk about Budo. Or when I use the words, mudansha, koryu, bugei, bujutsu, etc. People know I have experience and training, and not simply just academic study that stands behind me. And they know it is quality (Ivy League) training. I have the book smarts too, of course. I got the Japanese culture academic college classes. I did my own research at the university working closely with the Asian studies dept too. Asian studies isn't what I got my degree in. I will tell you that now, honestly and openly. Even though most people think I do. Right now, I am just sharing stuff. I am being open and honest about my background, laying it out on the table. Letting people know I can talk budo/shop. And by my sensei and other top shihans definition as they live it, budo ain't what most people think it is. It isn't something as simple as a thesis statement. Budo as they define it, is one hell of a disciplined life style. That is the first layer of the onion, my friend.

Don't you love your prostrate. Remember when you could sleep through the night without getting up to pee once.


Seriously, you have a Happy and Wonderful Holiday, and may your training in 2016 be the best.


For all of your 'Japanese culture academic college classes' you clearly haven't learned the language - and to be honest you seem to struggle with English, which I assume is your native tongue. Perhaps you should talk less and read more.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:27 am

Finny wrote:
Ah Louis wrote:My friend, Dan. Samurai is a rank with all that is afforded to it, again we an not talking about Jigoro Kano's system. Rather the koryu system of which Kano based his modern ranking system. Being trained in a koryu for over 30 years, teaches you allot. But one of my kohai, is a walking data base. I am not. My rank is partly tied to the Kano system and the Koryu system. The Japanese they never throw anything out. It can make things complicated, but I respect them for it. Anyway, I am not intending to convince you of anything. I am not out to impress anyone with my actual presence, that is silly, big guy. I am discussing my background, I have provenance. Why should I be ashamed of it, because others don't? I have an organization, a well respected and authentic one that recognizes what I have learned. And what they taught me. I am comfortable with taking about it. I feel no rancor with it. I think it helps when we talk about Budo. Or when I use the words, mudansha, koryu, bugei, bujutsu, etc. People know I have experience and training, and not simply just academic study that stands behind me. And they know it is quality (Ivy League) training. I have the book smarts too, of course. I got the Japanese culture academic college classes. I did my own research at the university working closely with the Asian studies dept too. Asian studies isn't what I got my degree in. I will tell you that now, honestly and openly. Even though most people think I do. Right now, I am just sharing stuff. I am being open and honest about my background, laying it out on the table. Letting people know I can talk budo/shop. And by my sensei and other top shihans definition as they live it, budo ain't what most people think it is. It isn't something as simple as a thesis statement. Budo as they define it, is one hell of a disciplined life style. That is the first layer of the onion, my friend.

Don't you love your prostrate. Remember when you could sleep through the night without getting up to pee once.


Seriously, you have a Happy and Wonderful Holiday, and may your training in 2016 be the best.


For all of your 'Japanese culture academic college classes' you clearly haven't learned the language - and to be honest you seem to struggle with English, which I assume is your native tongue. Perhaps you should talk less and read more.



You do bring up a good point in the response before this one. Abuse of rank and all that does happen all too often in martial arts. Probably more than any other field. Because of the lack of standards and governing body to enforce those standards in many places abuse and bullshitting occurs. Lots of people bullshit, inflate and what not about themselves and what they do; martial arts for many is a business, from brick and mortar to those for seminar hire. The Japanese hallowed model of Budo, Mushashi even talked about it in his book what I just mentioned. But, that doesn't represent the institution or its value to acknowledge credibility and qualification related to Budo. When making broad sweeping generalization like, "all" rank and certification is bogus, and worthless tends to be a fallacy and stereotyping. Granted, it is a well used tactic by some in attempt to discredit an institution and bolster a personal agenda or capitalistic gain. In truth, credibility and its recognition does matter, being so it has long been instituted into Budo and its tradition. I respect the institution.

Finny, am an honest man. I have nothing to hide or ashamed of. When I am so open, I know it makes me highly vulnerable to haters. Your are right. I am not completely literate in the Japanese language. I don't claim that. I do though deeply understand the context and usage of many words and phrases, metaphors, idioms and other parts of that language. I am also keen to the relationship between the language and its culture. My sensei is Japanese from Japan. All the other teachers associated to that art are also from Japan and native Japanese, I learn from. With 30 plus years of training directly under Japanese, having Japanese native friends, working and living with Japanese provides an education and understanding you don't get in books. I have been fortunate. With, a bit of given background does provide context to terms and language usage. :)

English is my first language, but I am dyslexic. I do try my best. Then there is this damn sensitive mouse pad on my laptop that gets in the way. If my thumbs are just too close to the pad it sends the cursor all over the damn place randomly putting characters all over the place. In places I can't find. Only god knows where the stray letters end up.

Mr. Finny, it has been a pleasure chit chatting with you, sharing a bit about myself and my training background. I appreciate your efforts. You have a very Happy Holiday and a great New Year.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:13 am

Have a great day.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Tom on Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:25 pm

Bodywork wrote:[*Takeda self-admittedly had none, nor ever produced any. Your history of Takeda is seriously flawed to outright fabrication.


Takeda Sokaku received a menkyo kaiden teaching license in Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu from Toma Shibuya and inka in Hozoin-ryu spear (according to several DR sources).

John Edward Pearson, a graduate of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, began training Daito Ryu Kodokai around 1986/7 under Hayawo "Ken" Kiyama. Mr. Pearson takes his RSF nom-de-forum from a long-deceased Chinese immigrant to San Luis Obispo, a pioneering businessman whose store remains one of the important historic sites of San Luis Obispo County.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:42 am

Tom wrote:
Bodywork wrote:[*Takeda self-admittedly had none, nor ever produced any. Your history of Takeda is seriously flawed to outright fabrication.


Takeda Sokaku received a menkyo kaiden teaching license in Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu from Toma Shibuya and inka in Hozoin-ryu spear (according to several DR sources).

John Edward Pearson, a graduate of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, began training Daito Ryu Kodokai around 1986/7 under Hayawo "Ken" Kiyama. Mr. Pearson takes his RSF nom-de-forum from a long-deceased Chinese immigrant to San Luis Obispo, a pioneering businessman whose store remains one of the important historic sites of San Luis Obispo County.

Tom
I have a complete history of Takeda Sokaku, given to me by Stan Pranin before it was even published. My statement about his rank was referring to his station in Daito ryu. Takeda held no known rank in the art, that he claimed predates him. He called himself "Secretary of general affairs." This is not a rank. Were Daito ryu a koryu, (which it is not) there would be scrolls that had been passed out to various members throughout its proposed lenthy history and throughout the country of Japan. It is fairly common to buy and collect old koryu scrolls. None have ever been found, not a single one, of any supposed Daito ryu that predated Takeda.
He never claimed a rank in it, not menkyo, nor Shihan or even himself as soke. Which would be the highest position in a koryu. Also unusual, to the point of being unreservedly peculiar, was his continuing to "add" scrolls as years went on. Note* this would be almost impossible in an established koryu that had its curriculum established somewhere in its supposed 1,000+ year history.
So, we have:
*No scrolls any where in the history of the land
*Continually added and changing scrolls
*his son changing the art and calling it by a different name and calling himself soke of *that* art.
*Only to later switch back and literally dump his own art and all his students and award a post dated Menkyo to Kondo in his father's art. (Magnificently weird).
*the addition of menkyo rank awarded to one person in Sokaku's later years -a scroll and rank that no one had ever seen before
* the admission by Tokimune (son of Sokaku) to a Sendai police captain that neither he or his father had any rank.

These are all very peculiar events for an art claiming to be Japan's oldest ryu. In contrast, a real koryu, like TSKSR with a 600 year history, had established scrolls at its founding and throughout its history.

It is more probable and logical that Takeda invented Daito ryu on his own. It wasn't until after his arrest and dismissal for the construction worker incident and the court confiscating his beloved Kotetsu sword that he started teaching. THis is critical as well. Since he began teaching AFTER the Meiji restoration, that invalidates the art as a koryu. His own eimorku (registry) proves that out. At this point he started teaching jujutsu, with the earliest known mention of aiki being 1913 under Kodo's father. It was also at this point he started carrying his steel pointed walking stick. Which still exists, I've seen it.
This was of course a dynamic change. He did as he was directed by one of the Aizu clan councilors who told him: "The time of the sword is over. Teach jujutsu." which he did until his death. Again, ad to stress the point, this occurred AFTER the Meiji restoration, that alone making what follows a gendai and NOT koryu, art.

What did he teach.
Takeda was known for unusual power, so were his top five students. This power, was generated/created by solo training. The solo training aspects of the art are in keeping with some known body conditioning austerities in Shingon Buddhism. These he credited not to his father or grand father but rather to a monk Chikanori. Who held no known rank or training in any Japanese art. It was he, that Sokaku cited for teaching him aiki. Supposedly through a oshiki- uchi training process.
Now, this is damn peculiar as well. Oshiki-uchi is not a term used in the koryu arts, it means inside the threshold more familiar to the ICMA students here as indoor disciple. Why is this interesting? Chikanori had a Chinese family link. He was known for practicing solo training, including the use of solo Chinese saber sword work. Takeda's aiki-in-yo-ho (yin/yang method) has breath work reminiscent of marrow washing. Various other practices throughout the art contain other known internal training methods and terminology. And oddly enough it wasn't until he revealed this aiki in 1922 to one Of Ueshiba's other teachers that he included it in the actual name of the art.
But I digress...
Here we have a most peculiar art, with a distinctly inconsistent lineage, a modern day guy who shows up with a weird teaching methodology, who refused to be called soke, never mentioned any other ranked person over, under, around or sideways related to him in the art anywhere, creating an ever increasing number of scrolls, all while claiming he was an indoor disciple of a Chinese Shingon Buddhist monk, Who is the guy Takeda claims "gave me aiki" All while calling himself "The secretary of general affairs" the weirdest koryu title I have ever heard. It sounds like a U.N. party planner more than budo.
That is all damn strange. It makes Daito ryu a gendai art and not a koryu (not that it matters) but didn't offer him nor did he claim, any rank in it. And why should it? He invented it. Virtually making it up as he went along.

To your second point.
I know who John is, Tom, thanks. Thus making the end of 2016 a potentially truly rich, experience for me, considering his and some other Daito ryu folks over at ebudo and aikiweb's view...the future looks bright and both surprising and rewarding.

It's funny how some lessons can be hard won and span decades. Most of us don't have the patience to see that some of the best rewards come in the fullness of time. My father taught me well: Never exact revenge. Always forgive. You were great in Seattle, changing the subject when I had gotten upset over that other incident. Too much wine.
Last edited by Bodywork on Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bodywork
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Tom on Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:19 pm

I'm in accord with Takeda Sokaku inventing/developing Daito Ryu aikijujutsu, based on considering the most credible historical evidence.

Yes, a lot has happened this year, giving you a real springboard into 2016. Best wishes for that.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby allen2saint on Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:53 am

I find this entire discussion interesting and all but...I'd really like to hear more about this...

I am reminded of an aikido Shihan, incensed at the on line commentary of a guy who challenged him. He flew to meet him and confront him.
His Mom answered the door. "Can I help you?"
He was thirteen years old.
True story.
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