more advanced budo..

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:11 am

I wanted to make sure that no one considers my post a negative commentary on Daito ryu. It most assuredly is not. Understanding its accurate history is no reflection of the art itself; good, bad, or indifferent. Any modern practitioner calling it the ivy league of Koryu is simply not a reality since it is not a koryu. Even were it a koryu, in and of itself that type of statement is insulting to many who are in koryu.
At the end of the day it is more important to focus on being an Ivy league class player...in a community college, then c- player at a top school.
There is no end of people who simply suck, and count on their creds to carry them. I have hired dozens of engineers in my life time. Their schooling has never proved to be any indicator of their worth. Their CV, at least for me, has been in their work. If we tested each and every person in budo on the quality of their work and could somehow rank them on their actual skills? It would turn Budo on its head.
One thing I have learned is that in many aspects budo, is like a septic tank...shit floats to the top.
In both Daito ryu and aikido there are very, very few people worthy of the name.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:27 am

allen2saint wrote:I find this entire discussion interesting and all but...I'd really like to hear more about this...

I am reminded of an aikido Shihan, incensed at the on line commentary of a guy who challenged him. He flew to meet him and confront him.
His Mom answered the door. "Can I help you?"
He was thirteen years old.
True story.

That was Dennis Hooker. Former Army Ranger, Aikido shihan (deceased) who turned to Aikido to actually calm him down....and heal him.
In a way it is no different than Military guys I know playing COD with 8 yr olds and getting their asses kicked.
Like many of us, we eventually realized we should not equate our experiences and real life skills with keyboard warriors and shihans, who when we meet, absolutely suck.
John's dependence on his CV has virtually no meaning, based on what budo has done to itself. On the other hand, It would be better for John to have place a broad range of people -outside his system-who have been impressed by his actual skills.
As for me, John? It's pretty hard to impress thousands of people from both Traditional and modern arts, from shodan to shihan, from around the world. You have to be a bit of an idiot for that not to give you pause.
John's teacher and seniors got it right. Its about the work, not the rank. They said...
"Some people spent years earning rank
Other spent years attaining skills."

Or as John's teacher once said
Many people talk (big)
You? Shugyo
Years go by
People still talking
Then you get up to demonstrate
Then everyone knows the truth."


Shugyo is a very demanding standard. It demands results.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Rabbit on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:47 am

The relentless insistence of this line on an on line platform without providing anything by way of demonstration is infuriating and borderline trolling

The HUGE numbers of students of a high level who are humbled in the presence of previously inexperienced skill are repeated ad nausium

By all accounts Dan is an excellent teacher and a nice guy in person but really .....

If there is a seminar in London I will try and attend and hopefully all will make sense and I will be a convert

Until then I wont make a whisper Tom
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:35 pm

How is Johns insistence on skill vetted by rank, as an excuse to discredit opinion...any better or different than a statement of skill vetted by a couple thousand people OF rank, as a response?
I don't care about any of it. But I'll be damned if detractors get to play the rank card, and I am chastized for using the same argument as a response.
Trolling?
John went on and on about having me banned for not answering about rank while never offering any himself. I never brought it up and I could care less about his. I know his rank, his seniors and his teacher.
Of course I understand that saying multitudes of martial artists don't get high level skills is challenging to hear, but I also... put my knowledge and skills in the line, month after month in open rooms around the world. That presents its own very different and credible argument, then sitting behind a screen and being "offended" and never once showing up to defend your own counter point.
I am thus, highly credible where it counts. And any reasonable person in the arts knows what I say about lists skills is true. Budo has failed, either by intent or poor transmission to teach these skills.
Again, instead of attacking what you don't understand, why not go to one.... Just one... of the many posts I've made over the years discussing movement and respond intelligently to it. Most of the time they sit there unanswered. THAT... is why I lost interest in responding in detail. I suspect it is also why I get senior guys here writing me in PM's, and sympathizing.
I'm not your enemy. I'm no one's enemy. I don't love what the arts have become, I love what they used to be.

P.S.
No one is a convert. I'm not doing anything for someone to convert... too. That is also why people stay in their arts. Moreover, what I teach isn't mine. Therefore, I have zero ego about it. It is in several arts, some more than others and just not openly taught. That's why this work is making friends and equal relationships across so many ranks and arts.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:54 pm

And speaking of trolling
Why not talk about rank as an issue
Daito ryu as a koryu
Anything on topic other than... me
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Tom on Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:31 pm

Rabbit wrote:The relentless insistence of this line on an on line platform without providing anything by way of demonstration is infuriating and borderline trolling

. . . .

If there is a seminar in London I will try and attend and hopefully all will make sense and I will be a convert

Until then I wont make a whisper Tom


I would hope you would not limit yourself to a whisper, Ben. The psychodynamics of existential coaching require a full range of expression.

Seek not to follow in the footsteps of men of old. Seek what they sought. That's my impression of what Dan keeps going on about. You know, the "relentless insistence" part.

It is indeed infuriating that these methods and this training paradigm aren't demonstrated online. You could check out Chris Davis' "Internal Power Training" website and access a helluva lot of very good information, if you want an idea. And no, Chris has never trained with Dan. The suggestion is just to point out that the concepts and drills can be independently developed from a multiplicity of sources. But it takes a lot of work and practical insight and most people aren't up to it.

In the meantime, wander some Saturday morning over to the bandstand by the boating pond in the south part of Regent's Park. Ask a gent there by the name of Lindon if you can join in the push-hands practice. Ask him what might be happening in April.

And for goodness' sake if something infuriates you here, either ignore it or ask specific questions about specific martial topics implied in whatever is infuriating you. Ask focused, direct questions like what, why and how. "What are you doing?" with respect to a description of drills to develop a connected body. "Why do you do it that way?" And . . . logically . . . "How do you do it?" It's interesting how far objective questions made without reference to some misperceived agenda or personality conflict can take you.

And Ben, as I noted before . . . I'm not in the business of banning here. At RSF that will be someone else on the panel, because I am not around much and in the future will likely not be here at all. None of "us" are. If you haven't noticed, there is no one behind the Green Curtain. The wheel came off the steering column long ago.

Cheers.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby mrtoes on Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:47 pm

We have met Ben - I organised the Steve Morris seminar that you popped along to a few years ago. I also recommend meeting Lindon if you want an idea of what Dan teaches. He is a good guy.

Dan seems to rub you up (and others I dare say) the wrong way. He makes a lot more sense in person :D

I understand the request for online proof and demonstration, but it's just not how Dan operates. I doubt he will change, he seems pretty stubborn. Well worth checking out Chris's material to get a flavour (I subscribed to his introductory program and there's great stuff in there and some very similar exercises) but do note that despite some striking similarities there are also important differences in approach and material and it is ultimately not the same thing (neither should it be!!!)

The one thing I totally don't understand from anyone is implications that Dan's online rantings are some sort of marketing machine... His marketing sucks, period. He fills seminars to capacity but never beyond the point where he can keep quality. The prices are really reasonable for what you get. The return rate for newcomers is incredibly high. He could make way more money if that was all he cared about and he wouldn't need his brash online persona for that either. I have been to a TON of seminars with big name teachers over the years and I have seen halls filled with way more people who paid nearly twice what Dan charges who don't once get hands on with the teacher and who walk away having learnt nothing and they don't get bad press here.

I'd offer to catch up myself but I suck and anyway I'm 10000 miles away in a strange land :)

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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:06 pm

When you know you know...you know, and so will everyone you touch! You know? ;)
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Rabbit on Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:43 am

Thank you both for the replies.
And the info. Appreciated

Just to be clear I have never said or thought that Dan is not a nice fellow orvthst he is not skilled. I am sure he is both. Nor have I mentioned marketing

I am guilty of veering off topic I admit, while enjoying learning about takeda
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby mrtoes on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:41 am

Yeah that bit actually wasn't aimed at you Ben, just addressing something I see repeated here quite a bit. I don't post often so I might as well say everything I have to say in one go.

Anyway I like it when Dan gets provoked, often it makes him say the most interesting things!

Good training,

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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:14 pm

Doc Stier wrote:When you know you know...you know, and so will everyone you touch! You know? ;)

Perfect, Doc.
I say this at every seminar: "If I can go outside and get any person I find, to come in here and they feel just like you. What does that say about you?"
Even gym rats and kettle bell guys, once they touch me and I test them, and they see all their power...not helping them much to throw me... they get interested pretty fast. I really is just a different way to organize and work out the whole body.
The Asians knew what they were doing when they were wearing armor all day and both carrying and using long pole weapons. They were just distinctly uninterested in teaching foreigners. As Takeda said to Sagawa. "Your solo training is for you, don't show that to people! And NEVER to foreigners! They're too big already and it will give them too much of an advantage."

Your other point, Doc is pretty clear as well. Once you start to get this and you feel yourself changing? You know its different, and you know, you know. You don't really have to be told. Why? Because everyone else feels like you used to feel.
And I know, that you know, that you know, and I know it too! 8-)
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Bodywork wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:When you know you know...you know, and so will everyone you touch! You know? ;)

Perfect, Doc.
I say this at every seminar: "If I can go outside and get any person I find, to come in here and they feel just like you. What does that say about you?"
Even gym rats and kettle bell guys, once they touch me and I test them, and they see all their power...not helping them much to throw me... they get interested pretty fast. I really is just a different way to organize and work out the whole body.
The Asians knew what they were doing when they were wearing armor all day and both carrying and using long pole weapons. They were just distinctly uninterested in teaching foreigners. As Takeda said to Sagawa. "Your solo training is for you, don't show that to people! And NEVER to foreigners! They're too big already and it will give them too much of an advantage."

Your other point, Doc is pretty clear as well. Once you start to get this and you feel yourself changing? You know its different, and you know, you know. You don't really have to be told. Why? Because everyone else feels like you used to feel.
And I know, that you know, that you know, and I know it too! 8-)

Roger that! Thanks, Dan. 8-)
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Rabbit on Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:42 am

Thanks Toe's

That seminar was good, I could hardly move the next day - Steve is terrifying!

Dan - Sam Chin has students in my area. Is his method similar or comparable to achieving the kind movement / connectivity / power that you teach?

What are the similarities and differences, if any?
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby Bodywork on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:19 pm

Rabbit wrote:Thanks Toe's

That seminar was good, I could hardly move the next day - Steve is terrifying!

Dan - Sam Chin has students in my area. Is his method similar or comparable to achieving the kind movement / connectivity / power that you teach?

What are the similarities and differences, if any?

It's not up to Sam or I to compare our methods, nor our students either. You would have to know the full measure of what each can do and understand it.
I think it is far more important to decide for yourself what you want and go for it all the way.
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Re: more advanced budo..

Postby wiesiek on Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:52 am

so
in our search for internal JMA
he is big "no no" master ?
https://youtu.be/S9wODMKiHAA
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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