Kua Movement

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Kua Movement

Postby BruceP on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:26 pm

Bodywork wrote:Hi Bruce
Of course all of that was aimed at me. Frid. Nights are for regular people to ask questions and address things other newbies may not be ready for, or focus on stuff that particular group is working on.
Some call it respect for students in a professional relationship.



Omigoodness. It wasn't aimed at anyone. I had no idea about your Friday night whatevers. If you need to make it about you, be my guest

My choice of words kinda fits now that I read it again. Just found Michael's Trump-esque post really humorous.
Last edited by BruceP on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:53 pm

Bodywork wrote:You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Mechanically what would folding do to produce either stability, or power?
What would rotation do to enhance stability and power.

You yourself just noted that turning of the hip drags the knee. I would add that you can stretch and loosen and solve that problem, but without loosening the joints and re- training the legs/ pelvic floor/ and virtually all of the surrounding musculature, you would still just end up swimming your hips sideways like the vast majority of martial artists.
Next is the issue of creating a Dantien
Training it to use the power being offered by the legs and then directing it.... where? How?
How, does it come up when it used to spin..out?
What muscles are doing what to change?
What does "up" involve that isn't "out" anymore?
Powering through the hips.
Is vastly different than powering from the hips.
Powering through the hips is shown all over the place in high level guys (again, to stay on topic it is the OP video 0.20 and on)
Powering from the hips? Watch the rest of the videos from this thread and a host of other guys claiming that they don't... until you watch them move.
Devlin. You really don't want to bring power from one leg to the other through the lower basin. It is terribly inefficient. Joining the dantien to them and joining the upper body to the lower body through a conditioned connection between the dantien(s) is the way to go.
To say it another way:
You can generate all the power your can muster from your legs....
Where is it going?
How did it get there?
For most TMAers I've met..
A percentage good out their knees.
A percentage out their hips
A percentage out their shoulders
And another dumping from one side to the other.

The very idea of whole body connection and rotations in the frame to make yin/yang is like talking a different language. It takes ten seconds to put hands on people who do it and you can feel the difference. The problwm isn't that. The problem is being willing to eat bitter and re-tool your body to do it.



Thanks for those ideas I will bear them in mind, even though its all way over my head im not going to debate it as I'm not an expert on body biomechanics in the same way you are. But I will say I agree with you on the connection between the lower and upper body to connect up the legs. I think it's the belt meridian you are talking about that achieves this? If so, this is the part that tends to get a lot of slack and causes those swinging hips, side to side motions imo.
But you've said it before and I agree with you that this stuff is difficult to process in words. Real live demonstration is ideal and I've always wanted to get into grappling but haven't done so. But if you're in the UK anytime soon and you're in the mood to, give me a PM to do some long hours of training along with a discussion of the mechanics behind it. I really want to be sure I am not wasting my time and am doing the most efficient body-method training.
Last edited by amor on Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:26 am

D_Glenn wrote:Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.

Actually, I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Nor do I think what you are saying makes sense. You are confusing direction of forces with commensurate connections in your body. But that's fine. And no, I don't have to feel, HJB in order to understand force direction utilizing and incorporating whole body connection.
If you look at videos of students they are markedly different from a teachers movement, many with a pronounced disconnect from not only top and bottom, but even their own upper center is disconnected. One of whom has his shoulders chambering and snapping back and forth without chest, without back and was quite happy to be showing it to the world as his arts high level work. There's really nothing to say to that.
I think intellectual understanding is quite different from physical skill and understanding.
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby willie on Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:32 am

Bodywork wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.

Actually, I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Nor do I think what you are saying makes sense. You are confusing direction of forces with commensurate connections in your body. But that's fine. And no, I don't have to feel, HJB in order to understand force direction utilizing and incorporating whole body connection.
If you look at videos of students they are markedly different from a teachers movement, many with a pronounced disconnect from not only top and bottom, but even their own upper center is disconnected. One of whom has his shoulders chambering and snapping back and forth without chest, without back and was quite happy to be showing it to the world as his arts high level work. There's really nothing to say to that.
I think intellectual understanding is quite different from physical skill and understanding.


Dan, maybe there is more then one concept going on at once.
There is boring, spiraling and drilling.
Doesn't matter anyway, people don't like martial taijiquan. it disrupts the status quo.
Especially if it is a non-Asian that has it.
Last edited by willie on Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:36 pm

Bodywork wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Dan, I understand what you are saying but you'd have to feel Jinbao do what I'm describing- basically all the power that the Kua has takes out your legs, while simultaneously the Bolang Jin power of the Dantian is taking out your upper body.

So think more about the 70% power that the kua can produce is all being directed to attack the opponent's lower basin. If that makes sense. It's a different usage of power then is seen in other martial arts.

Actually, I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Nor do I think what you are saying makes sense. You are confusing direction of forces with commensurate connections in your body. But that's fine. And no, I don't have to feel, HJB in order to understand force direction utilizing and incorporating whole body connection.
If you look at videos of students they are markedly different from a teachers movement, many with a pronounced disconnect from not only top and bottom, but even their own upper center is disconnected. One of whom has his shoulders chambering and snapping back and forth without chest, without back and was quite happy to be showing it to the world as his arts high level work. There's really nothing to say to that.
I think intellectual understanding is quite different from physical skill and understanding.

Again, it's a usage of the body you won't understand until you feel it. I believe Jinbao says it comes from a style called "Zhang "Mian" Bojing's Duan Da Quan", which Dong Haichuan had learned somewhere along the way.

And again it's not about 'right or wrong' it's just different. This is the way the Lion system of our Baguazhang uses the body. While the Dragon system uses the legs and kua in the way you describe.

***
I don't understand what "videos of students" are you watching?

Students of who?

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:29 am

Hi Devlin
We'll just have to let it go, then.
I've never heard you accurately describe or discuss the movement I am talking about. If you did move that way, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
Your discussion of using 70% kua to do attack anything -by definition- makes little sense. And no, I don't have tofeel it, to know that.
You might as well say, "We hit with 60% of our shoulders to penetrate!" and then call that whole body power, or really anything particularly special.
No body part operates separately with a high percentage of power generation. Nor does everyone use each part the same as a connected whole. When one thing moves, everything moves.... and power comes through and is directed by, the kua but it is meant to be joined with dantian and back and it isn't used, laterally and independently.

I don't want to discuss students. Its a waste of time. I used it only to demonstrate a lack of understanding since most clearly move differently than their teachers. Which makes further discussion of them a moot point.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:34 am

Dan, the piece of the puzzle that you are missing is that in He Jinbao's Baguazhang, it's the Bolang Jin movement that jolts the wave of flesh upward (and downward), not the powerful movement of the kua. The Kua is part of the Zhuangji li (biomechanical hit), bolang jin is providing the secondary wave that you time to coincide with the initial hit. It can be part of the initial hit (in which case it would be considered a deng or beng li (biomechanic)), or it can be following behind as a backup (which gives one more options to change), or it can be going from one leg into the other, which is what you need to feel from Jinbao because it's unfathomable. Every time you see Jinbao (if he likes you), you get to feel something else that you can't fathom- how a human being can develop the capacity to create so much force, as subtleties of that force, and he's only using around 20% of his full capacity so that you don't get seriously hurt.

Bolang Jin is not bowing the back. Using the back as a bow is common in CMAs. Bolang Jin is different.

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:41 am

D_Glenn wrote:Dan, the piece of the puzzle that you are missing is that in He Jinbao's Baguazhang, it's the Bolang Jin movement that jolts the wave of flesh upward (and downward), not the powerful movement of the kua. The Kua is part of the Zhuangji li (biomechanical hit), bolang jin is providing the secondary wave that you time to coincide with the initial hit. It can be part of the initial hit (in which case it would be considered a deng or beng li (biomechanic)), or it can be following behind as a backup (which gives one more options to change), or it can be going from one leg into the other, which is what you need to feel from Jinbao because it's unfathomable. Every time you see Jinbao (if he likes you), you get to feel something else that you can't fathom- how a human being can develop the capacity to create so much force, as subtleties of that force, and he's only using around 20% of his full capacity so that you don't get seriously hurt.

Bolang Jin is not bowing the back. Using the back as a bow is common in CMAs. Bolang Jin is different.

.

Sigh..
Well have to nicely disagree.

1. That kind of power is a twice told tale. The same is said of me and a bunch of other guys. And it comes from whole body power

2. You still don't catch my drift. That's why you keep defending/explaining, him.
I don't think it's him that's wrong...
It's you. ;)

3. The what and how, as you describe it makes no sense, and you are unable to explain it.
Why? Because you don't get the how and why yourself. By your own admission, you don't get it. I'm just agreeing with you. Its not what you think it is.
4. I don't have to feel him to know when a mechanical model (yours, not his) makes no sense.
Last edited by Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby willie on Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:32 am

What a argumentative, Useless ending to this thread.
No information, No video, No nothing.
This is what I call, fake it until someone else provides a video, then claim
that they knew it all along. total B.S.
Last edited by willie on Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:30 pm

70% + 30% = 100% whole body power.

The opponent's legs are also the same ratio. You don't need 100% of your power going at his upper body. Xingyiquan likes to play that, Baguazhang doesn't, it's different.

I often quote HJB but I don't like to denote that because it doesn't seem proper. It's a 'face' issue.

Carry on though with your incomplete methods.
No skin off my hide.

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:33 pm

willie wrote:What a argumentative, Useless ending to this thread.
No information, No video, No nothing.
This is what I call, fake it until someone else provides a video, then claim
that they knew it all along. total B.S.

Of course.
Anyone will tell you if it isn't on video, it isn't real.
HJB is on the video. Tell us what he's doing!
So is Chen Yu
And of course, you have unusual power too...riiight?
You have contributed nothing of value that I have ever read. Why is that!
Last edited by Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:39 pm

Then again..
All of my descriptions make mechanical and defensible, sense.
Devlin's... don't.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:00 pm

Bodywork wrote:Of course.
Anyone will tell you if it isn't on video, it isn't real.
HJB is on the video. Tell us what he's doing!
So is Chen Yu
And of course, you have unusual power too...riiight?
You have contributed nothing of value that I have ever read. Why is that!

:)
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:41 pm

D_Glenn wrote:70% + 30% = 100% whole body power.

The opponent's legs are also the same ratio. You don't need 100% of your power going at his upper body. Xingyiquan likes to play that, Baguazhang doesn't, it's different.

I often quote HJB but I don't like to denote that because it doesn't seem proper. It's a 'face' issue.

Carry on though with your incomplete methods.
No skin off my hide.

.

Hold on now...
I've been nice.
I can defend and explain what I do, you can't or haven't explained what you do. As I've noted. So okay maybe you're frustrated okay..
But...
Have I mentioned YOUR "system? "
No.
Disparaged your teacher?
No. In fact I have complimented him here.
You choose to disparage mine?
Okay, then.
As far as incomplete?
From ground to standing
From classical jujutsu to modern combatives
From classical weapons to modern weapons
With some very heavy hitters supporting the work?
Ya... I'm good thanks.
I'm glad you're enjoying yours as well. I like what HJB does.
Peace
Dan
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:43 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
Bodywork wrote:Of course.
Anyone will tell you if it isn't on video, it isn't real.
HJB is on the video. Tell us what he's doing!
So is Chen Yu
And of course, you have unusual power too...riiight?
You have contributed nothing of value that I have ever read. Why is that!

:)

That was to Willy, not you Devlin. You jumped in. I edited his comment in.
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