Kua Movement

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Kua Movement

Postby fuels on Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:16 pm

Having read this thread and those of similar tone I have to say, bagua can be learned without much in the way of abstract discussion, or for that matter, complex interpretation about the meaning of "internal".
Last edited by fuels on Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:52 am

I will contend with that comment.
The few I have ever met who have unusual power, all agree it is an exacting work, counter intuitive to normal movement and it takes years. No arts forms will just give it to you, no matter how many times you do them. It's HOW you do them, the intent behind the forms, that is everything.

Hence why most people in the arts feel like any other Tom, Dick, or Harry. Doesn't matter how well they can fight or do their art either. That's a different topic.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby fuels on Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:39 pm

[quote="Bodywork"]I will contend with that comment.
The few I have ever met who have unusual power, all agree it is an exacting work, counter intuitive to normal movement and it takes years. No arts forms will just give it to you, no matter how many times you do them. It's HOW you do them, the intent behind the forms, that is everything.


The words, "how" and "intent" have entirely different definitions. But then this is an example of the obtuse territory purveyors of "secrets" will will often lead you to, so I'll exit this train right here.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Ed Ladnar on Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:28 pm

If the answer to "how" you perform a movement is "with intent," it's not that mysterious is it? What is "intent" is a valid question - what does moving with "intent" feel like? That is a problem with translating language into physical experience (and vice versa), not necessarily a problem of obscurantist teachers hiding the ball.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:44 pm

Indeed. Intent can and has been taught.
There is physical movement that has to be taught, organized and coordinated, but that movement, virtually all of it, can then be mimicked and used without intent. Which makes a palpable difference in feel and execution.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby wiesiek on Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:00 pm

@Dan
My today knowledge is telling me, that not to many things on the earth are really even :).

DT is on the Qihai point high .
Kua, as I got from our RSF endless discussions - it is area little lower than Qihai.
I`m presume, that we don`t standing on the heads, ;)
just to be clear, :
I started "internal" journey not solely for MA purpose, and in the fact didn`t have a chance to use >internal knowledge moves < on tatami yet,
- Chen`s school where I try sword form for fun recently / never worked with sword form before/ don`t spar at all :(.
This may change shortly, `cause Aikido guys opening dojo near my place.
It going to be good time, - I trained 25 years with lot of fighting /no internal knowledge at all /,
and next 20 years I`m workin` almost "pure internal", no sparring at all.
so,
I`m not fixed on any position in use MA internal way, and always open for suggestion from more experienced side.
best
W
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:34 am

Bodywork wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:
jaime_g wrote:I cant see anything similar between Yin Bagua Bear and Dan's method ???

more similar. Meaning more than anything else. And really only the usage of the Kua.

Externally, one might think that Dan's movements are more similar to our Lion, but I've only seen a video of Dan back around 2007ish, so I'm basing my statement off a memory of what I had observed then. So I'm not a reliable source and really, I have no idea what he's doing these days.

.

Devlin
That's wasn't me.
There is an Aikido guy named Dan(e) Harden that many have confused with me. I don't move ANYTHING like that.
I've never been on film until 2015. And that was two very short clips with little movement shown.
Dan

I don't want to be a snitch. The video was only online for about 4 hours and then the whole thread was deleted shortly afterward. Someone else saw it and messaged the person that you would be super pissed off about it. I didn't know who you were at the time. It took me a couple of hours to find a free video downloader, but by the time I found one that worked the video was gone.

.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:37 pm

What the heck was I doing? :-)
I don't allow cameras in my dojo. And anyone before 2007 would *only* have been in my dojo!
Are you sure, Devlin?
You've seen me on face book.
Now I'm curious as hell.
And yes sir, Heads would have rolled if I knew who violated my own house.
You can tell me privately which forum and board if you prefer
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:56 am

I'm interested Dan, does the Kua movement you describe require two opposing spirals in the body?
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:02 am

You're not really interested. Mike is.
But to answer your question. Of course not.
As part of an open/close process it doesn't need to. As in spear and sword work. Discussed in various koryu.
And you can tell him we are over the dozen mark of Chen master level teachers agreeing that the power does cross the body in reeling. It was...yet another...thing he was so sure of, yet so wrong about.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:11 am

No, it's me that's interested. Mike can speak for himself, but I'm pretty sure he thinks it's all smoke and mirrors - a key misunderstanding.

I'd quite like to know how you explain it. Oh, and on a technical point, it's not power going across the body that's the issue (obviously a jin path can be made from the hand to either leg, that goes without saying), it's two opposing spirals at the same time in the body that is.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby wiesiek on Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:08 pm

some more kua diggin` at 5am:
so,
thinkin` of geometry inside - between DT and kua we can draw triangle, or better cone in the 3D format :), where DT is the tip.
This way DT is moving and kua are relatively even,
hmmm, `cause such imaginable figure isn`t to high -joint- ,
....
ball on the flat circle , where ball is DT, of c.,
but
when we add vertical center line in the meddle we gettin` support point,
this way
kua may be not "even" and possibility to circling kua DT loops is bigger too...

ok, that`s all for today,
back to the breathing
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:43 am

GrahamB wrote:No, it's me that's interested. Mike can speak for himself, but I'm pretty sure he thinks it's all smoke and mirrors - a key misunderstanding.

You're not only speaking FOR him, you're using his exact words. That's just creepy, and kind of sad.
When a guy who hosted Mike and had Mike stay at his house ended up hosting me later and aggreeing with me...
Mike insulted his own host calling him..."A useful idiot." when several of his legate forum perks ended up meeting new and training with me and THEY ended up disagreeing with him?
He threw them off his forum.
Later, Mike told an aikido Shihan that only 4 or 5 men on earth knows what he knows and they are all in China.
I wonder, what does...he... call you, his latest group of people who argue for him?
Is he as insulting and dismissive of you? Or is that fragile personality only manifest when you disagree?

I'd quite like to know how you explain it. Oh, and on a technical point, it's not power going across the body that's the issue (obviously a jin path can be made from the hand to either leg, that goes without saying), it's two opposing spirals at the same time in the body that is.

That goes without saying?????
Oh, that's hilarious!!! Really rich!
Cross body use was most certainly an issue with Sigman (and another Japanese internal teacher) for almost ten years. Look it up. Post after post, year after year on Aikiweb and E-budo. There are thousands of people who all read them. Diagrams and models of three axis movement published, passed out at seminars, argued about....
Mike stating categorically that nothing crossed the body....
Mike putting up diagrams from the classics but failing to put up (or understand) the complete model.
Until it was pointed out to him, over and over, (from other sources, not just me) that many taiji Masters agreed, in both written interviews and on film.... with what I had continuously argued all along.
So now it's okay?????
How cute, Graham!

With this topic?
I don't have the time to...yet again..debate something that every beginning student should already know. I will say that it is fascinatiing to watch people move, and hear what they say. They think laterally/they move laterally. A big flaw. Master level guys teach against that as well. But to each their own.....
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby willie on Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:42 am

Bodywork wrote:
GrahamB wrote:No, it's me that's interested. Mike can speak for himself, but I'm pretty sure he thinks it's all smoke and mirrors - a key misunderstanding.

You're not only speaking FOR him, you're using his exact words. That's just creepy, and kind of sad.
When a guy who hosted Mike and had Mike stay at his house ended up hosting me later and aggreeing with me...
Mike insulted his own host calling him..."A useful idiot." when several of his legate forum perks ended up meeting new and training with me and THEY ended up disagreeing with him?
He threw them off his forum.
Later, Mike told an aikido Shihan that only 4 or 5 men on earth knows what he knows and they are all in China.
I wonder, what does...he... call you, his latest group of people who argue for him?
Is he as insulting and dismissive of you? Or is that fragile personality only manifest when you disagree?

I'd quite like to know how you explain it. Oh, and on a technical point, it's not power going across the body that's the issue (obviously a jin path can be made from the hand to either leg, that goes without saying), it's two opposing spirals at the same time in the body that is.

That goes without saying?????
Oh, that's hilarious!!! Really rich!
Cross body use was most certainly an issue with Sigman (and another Japanese internal teacher) for almost ten years. Look it up. Post after post, year after year on Aikiweb and E-budo. There are thousands of people who all read them. Diagrams and models of three axis movement published, passed out at seminars, argued about....
Mike stating categorically that nothing crossed the body....
Mike putting up diagrams from the classics but failing to put up (or understand) the complete model.
Until it was pointed out to him, over and over, (from other sources, not just me) that many taiji Masters agreed, in both written interviews and on film.... with what I had continuously argued all along.
So now it's okay?????
How cute, Graham!

With this topic?
I don't have the time to...yet again..debate something that every beginning student should already know. I will say that it is fascinatiing to watch people move, and hear what they say. They think laterally/they move laterally. A big flaw. Master level guys teach against that as well. But to each their own.....


Dan I cant resist this one.
First off who is Mike, taiji or aikido?
4-5 men on earth know what?
I don't foolishly dis-miss anything because one of those 4-5 is my teacher, make no mistake, and I'm not in China.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby GrahamB on Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:13 am

That's a lot of drama Dan - to be honest I don't care about any of that he said she said nonsense. I've git zero interest in your internet drama. I asked you a question - if you can't answer it, you can't answer it I guess and I draw my own conclusions.
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