Kua Movement

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Kua Movement

Postby BruceP on Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:25 pm

Well, despite the self-deprecation, Mark, the clips are really clear on what is being worked at. And so simple even a caveman could do it - or at least understand it.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby WVMark on Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:34 pm

Ian wrote:
Leave my pathetic attempts at my training at my low level out of it.


Could you be more disparaging of your own training?


Let me put it another way. Take some of the rock guitarist greats. Hendrix, Page, Clapton, Beck, whomever. They've played most of their life. They're top of the class. Now take someone who hasn't handled a guitar and picks it up. Plays for about six months straight. You think he's going to be even close to the others? If you ask him what he thinks of himself (if he's honest), what do you think he'd say? Aw, man, I'm not even a pimple on their @ss. I'm outta tune, my chords are weak and my strings are dead. But, hey, man, check this out. I can do this and get the start of this. Then he listens to Hendrix, sighs, drops his head and mutters, man I gotta practice more. My sh1t's pathetic.

In the martial arts ... someone here mentioned long ago about their CMA training. He was taken aside and shown a very different training than the rest of the class. The class worked on forms. He trained something else. A year or two goes by and he joins class and he's way beyond them. But he's nowhere near his teacher's level. That guy isn't the point. Now think about being a member of that regular class! How much catchup does he have to do? He'd trained empty forms for years and that has very little to do with internal power. How do you think they'd see themselves when working with the likes of Chen Fake, Hong Jungshen, Sokaku Takeda?

It isn't disparaging at all. I'm just now starting to get a decent connection from my thighs around to my upper arms. By now, I should be better. Still way too much tension. Nowhere near enough whole body connection. Tight @ss white boy. I suck. But I'm better than I was a year ago. ;D
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby WVMark on Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:35 pm

BruceP wrote:Well, despite the self-deprecation, Mark, the clips are really clear on what is being worked at. And so simple even a caveman could do it - or at least understand it.


Thanks Bruce!
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby amor on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:02 pm

WVMark wrote:
It isn't disparaging at all. I'm just now starting to get a decent connection from my thighs around to my upper arms. By now, I should be better. Still way too much tension. Nowhere near enough whole body connection. Tight @ss white boy. I suck. But I'm better than I was a year ago. ;D


Do you find that when the deltoid part of your arm pushes forward it feels like its pushing on something hard, perhaps its the ribcage or maybe the scapula pressing against the ribcage. In any case is this something you should feel in the upperbody connection?
Last edited by amor on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby mrtoes on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:29 pm

jaime_g wrote:Dan is NOT teaching this https://vimeo.com/155019097


Well now - I don't think I've seen Mike move before. I appreciate having the chance to do so and I rather feel the video speaks for itself.

If Mark's videos are the ones I have seen (not too recent) I seem to remember they show him working on aspects of connection and do not show kua work or silk reeling at all. Regardless of their merits, I don't think they would serve as a good introduction to this kind of training nor as a remotely appropriate point of comparison.

As for CMA/JMA - the day I decided to consider how I want to move and stopped thinking about style was a really good day :)

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Re: Kua Movement

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:25 am

Mike Sigman
9 hrs
Relaxation and Exaggeration

In the videos that I do, I tend to exaggerate my movements so that the full extent of the twist/turn/coordination of the movement is visible. Also, when starting morning exercises, I tend to start exaggerated and gradually move toward almost imperceptible movement. The reason I always start big is to be sure that I'm engaging all the correct muscles and elastic parts of the body before I aim toward mostly elastic practice without exaggeration.

Ultimately, you don't want to move with exaggeration, but in my opinion, there has to be a stage of exaggeration at first or you'll miss the correct coordination.
One of the main reasons people have trouble learning a lot of CMA's from really good teachers is that the teachers tend to teach without showing in exaggeration exactly what is being done. I've been the victim of the same thing and that's why I tend to espouse using exaggerated movement... so people don't have to go through what I did. And yeah, I'm aware that Dan Harden is saying how non-martial my movements are, but if he doesn't shut up I'll cut off his flow of information from me again and he'll be in even worse straits than he is now. Only guy I've ever seen who steals information, doesn't give credit, and then tries desperately to hamstring the guy he's stealing the information from in order to puff himself up.
So exaggeration is to show (or at least give a better idea of) how the coordination is done. But there is another factor in exaggeration when using jin: the better and purer the use of jin is, the less the physical "structure" is needed (pay attention Dan, one more thing you're unaware of and giving away when you keep saying "his structure is all wrong").
In the few examples I've given about setting up a jin path, I've pointed out the trick of wiggling your hips (and other parts of the body) while maintaining a jin path. The reason for that quick test is to separate a real jin path from a partial-muscle-jin path. In a real jin path, the "qi thingies" are doing almost all the work; in a muscle-jin path, the body structure is doing a lot of the work. Are you trying to build up your qi or build up your structure? Sure, in real life you need optimal structure because it's additive, but in internal strength, your first and main weapon is going to be jin. Work as much as possible on jin as you can; worry about the exact structure, knee alignment, etc., later.

Here's what got me thinking about this topic: Think about the demonstrations where I have someone pushing on my arm or hand, etc., and I hold their push while wiggling my body, my shoulder, or whatever. An outside observer can say, more or less, wow, he is stable but his arms and his body are "relaxed". It's that automatic micro-adjustment of forces that the body/mind/subconscious can do while the rest of the body is doing whatever else it needs to do (like the waiter carrying the tray of drinks while doing the Samba). So the more skilled you are at maintaining a jin-force/line while doing something else, the "stronger your qi/ki is". The worry about "structure" simply shows ignorance of the real topic. The word "relax" now has a focused purpose, doesn't it?

So the next step I was thinking about was "can I take a push from someone and instead of just wiggling my hips can I maybe swivel my knees/legs around in a circle parallel to the ground. Well, yes, I can (even though some halfwit starts worrying about misaligned knees, totally missing the point and showing their ignorance).
But the last step in my thinking was about something that I heard Ben Lo (Luo Pang Jeng) say many years ago. Ben was a student of Cheng Man Ching, although I'm not a fan of Cheng's Taijiquan. Ben was talking about being able to stand and people feeling his legs would feel no muscular tension anywhere in the leg. At the time (back in the 1980's), I thought that was simply nonsense. No tension anywhere in the leg? What's holding him up? However, If I can take muscular areas out of the normal body circuit because I'm using "qi-thingies" to create jin .... maybe if my jin control is good I can do something like that. Maybe not. I just don't know. It's an interesting thought experiment and maybe something to work on. Give it a try.
BTW ... someone who's a member of RSF ... if you don't mind, slip this post into that Kua thread (Harden has no idea what the meaning of Kua usage is) and see if the posters get an oxygen infusion. wink emoticon
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby mrlizard123 on Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:58 am

Note to self: I'm not doing things wrong, I'm just exaggerating... it just looks wrong; this is useful to know... ;) ;)
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Patrick on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:01 am

Very entertaining.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:11 am

Patrick wrote:Very entertaining.


Image

That's me in the middle. ;)
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:11 am

Dmitri
And there ya go....
Although I am certainly wrong on occasion, its not often.
Graham B., another one of Mikes minions. Or as Mike calls people who agree with me and not him .."A useful idiot."
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:01 am

Oh boy...


Why, oh why
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:02 am

Graham
No one is more pleased than I to know you are training with him. I hope you fully embrace all he has to offer. I'll wait for many of your wasted years to go by until you join the others who finally realize that all he ever had was basics. and even those, not done too well.
I still don't get why you chose to bring all this up in a kua thread. As is typical of Mike and his people..
*You offered nothing helpful
*Said nothing on topic
*Used your time and presence to attack people

Got anything meaningful to say?
Anything on topic?

_______________________________________________________________________________

GrahamB wrote:
Mike Sigman
9 hrs
Relaxation and Exaggeration
In the videos that I do, I tend to exaggerate my movements so that the full extent of the twist/turn/coordination of the movement is visible. Also, when starting morning exercises, I tend to start exaggerated and gradually move toward almost imperceptible movement. The reason I always start big is to be sure that I'm engaging all the correct muscles and elastic parts of the body before I aim toward mostly elastic practice without exaggeration.

Ultimately, you don't want to move with exaggeration, but in my opinion, there has to be a stage of exaggeration at first or you'll miss the correct coordination.
One of the main reasons people have trouble learning a lot of CMA's from really good teachers is that the teachers tend to teach without showing in exaggeration exactly what is being done. I've been the victim of the same thing and that's why I tend to espouse using exaggerated movement... so people don't have to go through what I did. And yeah, I'm aware that Dan Harden is saying how non-martial my movements are, but if he doesn't shut up I'll cut off his flow of information from me again and he'll be in even worse straits than he is now. Only guy I've ever seen who steals information, doesn't give credit, and then tries desperately to hamstring the guy he's stealing the information from in order to puff himself up.
So exaggeration is to show (or at least give a better idea of) how the coordination is done. But there is another factor in exaggeration when using jin: the better and purer the use of jin is, the less the physical "structure" is needed (pay attention Dan, one more thing you're unaware of and giving away when you keep saying "his structure is all wrong").
In the few examples I've given about setting up a jin path, I've pointed out the trick of wiggling your hips (and other parts of the body) while maintaining a jin path. The reason for that quick test is to separate a real jin path from a partial-muscle-jin path. In a real jin path, the "qi thingies" are doing almost all the work; in a muscle-jin path, the body structure is doing a lot of the work. Are you trying to build up your qi or build up your structure? Sure, in real life you need optimal structure because it's additive, but in internal strength, your first and main weapon is going to be jin. Work as much as possible on jin as you can; worry about the exact structure, knee alignment, etc., later.

Here's what got me thinking about this topic: Think about the demonstrations where I have someone pushing on my arm or hand, etc., and I hold their push while wiggling my body, my shoulder, or whatever. An outside observer can say, more or less, wow, he is stable but his arms and his body are "relaxed". It's that automatic micro-adjustment of forces that the body/mind/subconscious can do while the rest of the body is doing whatever else it needs to do (like the waiter carrying the tray of drinks while doing the Samba). So the more skilled you are at maintaining a jin-force/line while doing something else, the "stronger your qi/ki is". The worry about "structure" simply shows ignorance of the real topic. The word "relax" now has a focused purpose, doesn't it?

So the next step I was thinking about was "can I take a push from someone and instead of just wiggling my hips can I maybe swivel my knees/legs around in a circle parallel to the ground. Well, yes, I can (even though some halfwit starts worrying about misaligned knees, totally missing the point and showing their ignorance).

1. He keeps revealing the level he is it, so that is refreshing.
Exaggeration of movement in the beginning in the wrong direction is yet another example of his poor teaching abilities. You move large, but in the proper way. Later you clean it up.
Pay attention Mike.
Correct directions of forces are not structure or tightness or proper structure either. Loose movement is not all about a jin path either, that is but one component. You need to do something with it and the loosening of the body and joints serve a later purpose. What Mike was discussing and showing in that loosy goosy video is a very, very, beginner level awareness. But There are things you do with connectedness, which he falls apart in doing in all his other his other videos
There is open close (his knee weakness is revealed there as well)
There is rotational force (His hip and knee weakness is revealed there as well
There is Acceleration (attached to the above)
There is direction of forces ( this is a very deep and complex subject which I thoroughly disagree with him, Ikeda, and many other teachers on)
Random loosy goosy movement will not address or resolve those issues
Six harmony movement covers it. Intent is everything and it drives a definitive and defensible, logical, order of movement. Mike, really doesn't understand how it pertains to movement.

2. He.... keeps referring back to his loose-goosy video.
I NEVER referenced that movement!!!! But as is the case with Mike, he is stuck in a tape loop of is own creation, failing to listen, thus unable to hear what is being said to him and essentially talking to himself and kicking out anyone who disagrees with him. There are many many people who do the loosy goosy demo. I do it as well (although much better, low to high and far more rubbery and under far more serious stress). That is not the issue or the discussion.

3. This is Mikes go to excuse for his poor movement IN ALL HIS VIDEOS. Not one, not two, ...ALL. It's grandiose amateur hour, start to finish and in seminars.
Ask him to defend "Up from the ground controlled by the waist and out the hands." Describe force directions when his knees sway, hips sway. He shows it everywhere. Clearly he doesn't know what he is doing, or how to fix it.

4. Information.
Once again, I'm accused of robbing from him? He has too make a more logical case. How did someone who supposedly is robbing from him, have a 26 yr teaching history of not agreeing with what he eventually revealed was his teaching model?
*I don't move like him
*I openly teach against the way he moves
*I openly teach against the way he organizes his body against opponents
*I disagree with his interpretations of many things
*I never talk about his loosy goosy video (he does)
So...no thanks to whatever information he might have to offer.
As I have said over and over, after finally getting to see him move? I had wasted any time I had spent talking with him.

Worth noting
Xue Bin at 0:20-0:22 and elsewhere is yet ANOTHER guy not doing what Sigman does either. Weird how Mike keeps saying "Go see the masters, and when people do...no one agrees with him and corrects his answers and his movement in his own videos. I mean, I don't care, but WTF?
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Bodywork on Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:37 am

Graham
There is no reason or excuse for the vehemence that Mike displays and we all have to weather and endure, much less seeing others used as pawns. You said your were not interested in... my drama.
I called you on it. Sayng this was from Sigman.
You... made the drama.
And I was proved absolutely right.

If you care to respond, try
a. Saying something on topic
b. Try avoiding talking about me
c. Try talking for yourself, instead of, Mike. As I said, that's just creepy and kind of lame.
Last edited by Bodywork on Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby Ah Louis on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:11 am

Confucius said, "a picture is worth a thousand words." The internet gives that a whole new meaning.

I wish there was an accurate and full translation of what the master is saying in the original video. I am grateful to the poster who had provided some translation. Such an abstract topic is open to a great amount of speculation and opinion, making difficult to tell whose comments have matched up correctly to what is being taught and expressed in the video, and who is spot on with their critique of the video.

Just an idea.
Last edited by Ah Louis on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kua Movement

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:17 am

Sigman? Oh that guy....I'm not sure if anyone remembers what I think of him...

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