Brussels

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Re: Brussels

Postby windwalker on Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:41 pm

Dmitri wrote:
leifeng wrote:You can't change Islam worldwide but you can regulate it within the borders of a western country.

Aside from that being a perfect setup for a whole lot of future trouble -- may I remind you of this little bit: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; (...)"


Pretty easy to do, stop considering it as a religion, consider it an ideology that is not supported by the US.

The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act still makes ineligible for permanent residence a person who “is or has been a member of or affiliated with” the Communist Party. INA § 212(a)(3)(D). Given that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has some 80 million members, this ground of ineligibility is a key issue for immigration lawyers representing Chinese clients.

A person may be ineligible for a green card (i.e., inadmissible) due to membership in the CCP or other organizations “affiliated” with the CCP, such as China’s minor political parties or mass organizations (e.g., Communist Youth League, All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, All-China Federation of Trade Unions, All-China Women’s Federation, etc.). See id. Such organizations are led by the Party, which uses them to penetrate the society at large and encourage popular support for Party policies.

http://lawandborder.com/communist-party ... reen-card/

Other then Islam being viewed as a religion, actions by its followers use the same tactics as by those who follow what is called Communism.



In the wake of the Paris and San Bernardino attacks, the West has again asked itself what it can do to stop Islamic extremism — while it is actively supporting Saudi Arabia, the world’s principal proselytizer of Islamic extremism.

If it is truly interested in stopping terrorism, then, the U.S. and the rest of the West will heed Chomsky’s advice. The U.S. will realize that there really is an easy way to stop terrorism: It will stop participating in it, and end its alliance with Saudi Arabia.

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/06/saudi_a ... /#comments

Very interesting in the way human rights are talked about in China, vs things that happen and are condoned in Saudi Arabia......
It would seem the chopping off of heads is a pretty common practice there. When ISIS uses it, its condemned but no mention of the 47 people who lost their heads this yr there... In fact

In September 2015, President Obama commended “the longstanding friendship between the United States and Saudi Arabia.” President Obama’s administration has in fact moved the U.S. even closer to the Saudi regime, particularly in the realm of military coordination. In the past five years, the U.S. has done more than $100 billion in arms deals with the Saudi monarchy.


Image
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Re: Brussels

Postby Dmitri on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:31 pm

You realize that the United States has its own Communist Party, right?

And that law is clearly one of those outdated ones that will likely be replaced in the near future (unless of course Trump gets to power...)
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Re: Brussels

Postby windwalker on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:57 pm

Dmitri wrote:You realize that the United States has its own Communist Party, right?

And that law is clearly one of those outdated ones that will likely be replaced in the near future (unless of course Trump gets to power...)


What does this http://www.cpusa.org/ run by US citizens have to do with immigration laws for non-citizens?

In case you want to join
If you live in the United States and are at least 18 years old, you can be member too.

http://salsa3.salsalabs.com/o/51018/p/s ... e_KEY=7847


this site specializes in it http://lawandborder.com/about/our-services/
is this statement false
Chinese Communist Party Membership Makes Some Ineligible for U.S. Green Card



My point was that if Islam, was not considered to be a religion it might fall under the same
laws as members of the CCP for the same reasons.

Why do you feel the law is outdated, and should be changed?
Do you mean the other candidates will change this law? and Trump will not?
What would they change?
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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:21 am

windwalker wrote:My point was that if Islam, was not considered to be a religion it might fall under the same laws as members of the CCP for the same reasons.


Islam is definitely a religion; the CCCP/Nazi/mafia-style infiltration techniques (the more extreme methods of nonviolent jihad?) & violent jihad* are better described as political Islam/Islamism, which covers (literal/fundamentalist) interpretations of Islam (covering sharia law, theocratic rule, discrimination against non-Muslims etc).

It seems that Islamism has considerable scriptural support, but that even under Muslim rule, sharia law & other Islamic traditions have implemented/followed to very varied extents. Islamism is not Islam, which is a 'social reality' with considerable leeway in scriptural interpretation as well as a faith. Bassam Tibi - a German-educated Syrian from a long line of Islamic theologians - makes this point (@9mins) here & is generally offers a very nuanced viewpoint on Islam (which he still practices) vs Islam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAC5FVCrTsI

Neglecting this distinction is one reason most political debate on these topics is so polarised and yet so off the mark. Discriminating against Muslims is no better than racism; failing to confront political Islam for fear of Islamophobia plays into Islamist hands. (And Islamism is a real thing, with negative implications for many social groups, even where it's supposedly moderate, like Turkey.)

*Strictly 'External jihad'; it seems 'jihad' has another, totally unproblematic interpretation to do with struggling internally against ones base inclinations.
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Re: Brussels

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:54 am

onebir wrote:
windwalker wrote:My point was that if Islam, was not considered to be a religion it might fall under the same laws as members of the CCP for the same reasons.


Islam is definitely a religion; the CCCP/Nazi/mafia-style infiltration techniques (the more extreme methods of nonviolent jihad?) & violent jihad* are better described as political Islam/Islamism, which covers (literal/fundamentalist) interpretations of Islam (covering sharia law, theocratic rule, discrimination against non-Muslims etc).

It seems that Islamism has considerable scriptural support, but that even under Muslim rule, sharia law & other Islamic traditions have implemented/followed to very varied extents. Islamism is not Islam, which is a 'social reality' with considerable leeway in scriptural interpretation as well as a faith. Bassam Tibi - a German-educated Syrian from a long line of Islamic theologians - makes this point (@9mins) here & is generally offers a very nuanced viewpoint on Islam (which he still practices) vs Islam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAC5FVCrTsI

Neglecting this distinction is one reason most political debate on these topics is so polarised and yet so off the mark. Discriminating against Muslims is no better than racism; failing to confront political Islam for fear of Islamophobia plays into Islamist hands. (And Islamism is a real thing, with negative implications for many social groups, even where it's supposedly moderate, like Turkey.)

*Strictly 'External jihad'; it seems 'jihad' has another, totally unproblematic interpretation to do with struggling internally against ones base inclinations.


agree

It is a faith, one that seems based on world events incompatible with most western cultures that those who practice it find themselves in for what ever reason.

In almost all insistences when a certain population threshold is reached they then use the freedom of the culture they find themselves in to implement their beliefs in a way
that would not be allowed in other Islamic faith based countries.

The cultures themselves have no defensive mechanisms in place protect themselves from it because it being a "faith"
is protected , which by comparison they have with other ideologies thought to be incompatible or harmful.

People who note this are called:

Islamophobia is an allegedly irrational fear of losing life or liberty to Islamic rule merely because the laws, sacred texts, and traditional practices of Islam demand the submission of culture, politics, religion and all social expression. It tends to afflict those most familiar with the religion while sparing the more gullible.

Unlike Infidelophobia (Quranically-inspired hatred and fear of non-Muslims - see 4:101), Islamophobia doesn't involve dead bodies. But bruised Muslim feelings, according to the teachings of the faith, are more important than the lives of infidels.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... hobia.aspx

One might ask is the fear irrational ?

Image
Piss Christ is a 1987 photograph by the American artist and photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist's urine.


consider this, what happened ?

interesting enough
Beginning September 27, 2012, Piss Christ was on display at the Edward Tyler Nahem gallery in New York, at the Andres Serrano show "Body and Spirit."[19] Religious groups and some lawmakers called for President Barack Obama to denounce the artwork, comparing it to the anti-Islamic film Innocence of Muslims that the White House had condemned earlier that month.[20]


So if they did not denounce it, the President wouldn't have of his own accord denounced it in the same way as he condemned the anti-islamic film earlier that month,,,,why?


as opposed to this ?

Charlie Hebdo editor says the paper is done with prophet Muhammad cartoons

On Jan. 7, two Islamist militants stormed Charlie Hebdo's Paris offices, killing 12 of its journalists, including some of its top editors and cartoonists. According to statements made later by al-Qaeda’s branch in Yemen, which claimed responsibility for the attack, they were punishing the newspaper for its mocking depiction of Muhammad, images of whom are considered blasphemous in Islam.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... -cartoons/

Not an isolated incident something that seems to be fairly common and is paid attention to in a way not so with other faiths?
why?
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Re: Brussels

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:13 am

windwalker wrote:why?

Different history paths. Christianity in its earlier stages burned people alive for simply saying the non-religiously-PC thing, or a neighbor telling the authorities you were a witch, etc. Let alone major military undertakings like the Crusades, slaughtering countless thousands of innocent "infidels" and imposing religious law.

It mostly evolved out of it, in line with evolution of technology and improvement of living standards.

Islam also evolved along the same route, although not at the same pace -- again, mirroring the evolution of technology and improvement of living standards in the countries of interest.


I have a better "why" question for you -- why is it that the Muslims who are well-off/rich, who may share the exact same radical beliefs, are never, ever the ones blowing themselves up? Why aren't the radical imams the ones doing "the noble thing"?
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:28 am

American politics isn't big on nuance. It's true that Islamism (or, the belief among certain Muslims that their destiny is to rule the world and impose Islamic law) is not the same as Islam, the religion, or even its major branches. Even so, not all Islamists are terrorists or believe in martial jihad. What's also true is that the number of violent Islamists is increasing, and that's the real issue. The questions are why the increase is happening and what to do about it.

Taking Islamism as a form of imperialism, the solution is to fight it the same way Nazism was fought. Assuming that there is an "Islamic State" (instead of people who just claim that there is, which is another question), destroy that state and its ability to exist. The touchy part is that, like France in 1944, you're going to have to kill a lot of innocent people who are merely being occupied. They had better want you to free them, and you better realize that you'll need their help.

However, it's clear that differentiating between Islam and Islamism does not change the scope or depth of animus at Muslim people. The rationale is illustrated when people suggest to "kill 'em all, let God sort them out" and proposals to "out Turk the Turk." It only creates more enemies than friends. Imagine an 8, 9 or 10 year-old listening to people talking about his religion, the identity he was born with, suggest that maybe they should be wiped out. Then, somebody gives him weapon and takes a photo. And, we say, "how can they do that?"

I can't say whether it reminds me more of a Hitler youth or Israel Boone (for the old-timers).
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Re: Brussels

Postby windwalker on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:31 am

Dmitri wrote:
windwalker wrote:why?

Different history paths. Christianity in its earlier stages burned people alive for simply saying the non-religiously-PC thing, or a neighbor telling the authorities you were a witch, etc. Let alone major military undertakings like the Crusades, slaughtering countless thousands of innocent "infidels" and imposing religious law.

It mostly evolved out of it, in line with evolution of technology and improvement of living standards.

Islam also evolved along the same route, although not at the same pace -- again, mirroring the evolution of technology and improvement of living standards in the countries of interest.


I have a better "why" question for you -- why is it that the Muslims who are well-off/rich, who may share the exact same radical beliefs, are never, ever the ones blowing themselves up? Why aren't the radical imams the ones doing "the noble thing"?


dont know, but their kids seem to do well in this regard.
The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef,[33][34] Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, El Sayyid Nosair, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Ahmad Ajaj, and Abdul Rahman Yasin.[35] They received financing from al-Qaeda member Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle, who would later allegedly admit to planning the September 11 attacks.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsib ... 11_attacks



Different history paths. Christianity in its earlier stages burned people alive for simply saying the non-religiously-PC thing, or a neighbor telling the authorities you were a witch, etc. Let alone major military undertakings like the Crusades, slaughtering countless thousands of innocent "infidels" and imposing religious law.


Are you sure this is what happened?
The Byzantines, who were Christian, lost. The Byzantine emperor asked the Christians in Europe to help protect his empire from the Turks. In 1095, Pope Urban II called for a crusade against the Muslims to regain control of Jerusalem.


If you want to use this as an example it seems to me an example of what happened and how they delt with it at that time.
We seem to be experiencing the same thing at this time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7y2LRc ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:38 am

"Piss Christ" is interesting. The artist would say that it's not a denunciation of Christianity. Rather, it's a denunciation of what people in our society have done to Christ. I.e., they've "pissed on Him."

Actually, one of the commandments is 'not to worship graven images.' Muslims don't represent God and don't show the face of their Prophet. That's their tradition. We think differently. But, I think it's counter-productive to argue that we should react the way some Muslims do to the portrayals of their holy personages.
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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:41 am

Dmitri wrote:I have a better "why" question for you -- why is it that the Muslims who are well-off/rich, who may share the exact same radical beliefs, are never, ever the ones blowing themselves up? Why aren't the radical imams the ones doing "the noble thing"?


Not sure abbout suicide bombing in particular, but Islamist terrorists aren't* typically from particularly poor backgrounds:
Social scientists have collected a large amount of data on the socioeconomic background of terrorists. According to a 2008 survey of such studies by Alan Krueger of Princeton University, they have found little evidence that the typical terrorist is unusually poor or badly schooled. Claude Berrebi of the RAND Corporation compared the characteristics of suicide-bombers recruited by Hamas and Islamic Jihad from the West Bank and Gaza with those of the general adult male Palestinian population. Nearly 60% of suicide-bombers had more than a high-school education, compared with less than 15% of the general population. They were less than half as likely to come from an impoverished family as an average adult man from the general population. Mr Krueger carried out a similar exercise in Lebanon by collecting biographical information for Hizbullah militants. They too proved to be better educated and less likely to be from poor families than the general population of the Shia-dominated southern areas of Lebanon from which most came.

There is also no evidence that sympathy for terrorism is greater among deprived people. ...


http://www.economist.com/node/17730424

*Or weren't: Syria, Libya etc may have changed the mix. But TGH I think most of them are acting more as insurgents than terrorists per se.
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Re: Brussels

Postby onebir on Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:47 am

Steve James wrote:Muslims don't represent God and don't show the face of their Prophet. That's their tradition.

Not exactly apparently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

I think there are also hadith prohibiting depictions of humans, animals etc - also applied quite unevenly. (Otherwise no TV ;)
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:00 am

The backgrounds of suicide bombers has changed over time, partly due to the need for more sophisticated technologies.

It has never been difficult for bombers to walk into a crowded area and blow themselves up or begin shooting. In Israel, it happened on buses and in front of cafes and in other public places. These bombings were carried out by the impoverished members of the Arab-speaking minority (or Palestinians) who were generally poor and uneducated.

With increased security measures, more sophisticated techniques were required, and more education was needed to construct the devices. In fact, nowadays, the most consistent background trait for these bombers is the study of engineering. http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/11/the ... engineers/

For the past 30 years, terrorists have become better funded, too. Osama bin Laden, and others, promised money as well as salvation from the great Shaitan. So, there's a difference today between the people who might actually perform the suicide bombings --which should really be a lot more frequent "if" that's the aim of a lot of people. Daesh pays recruits, and recruits educated people, too. However, these are ultimately cannon fodder.

What's also true is that in Europe the bombers always come from the ghettos because that's usually the only place where they are allowed to live. So, all the various classes of society are stuck in the same place under the same conditions.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:03 am

Oh, the "whenever they reach a certain population density" they take over :) That sounds just like Christians in the United States (and the entirety of the Americas). The Indians would have a different take on who "gets along well with others" in the world.
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Re: Brussels

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:04 am

windwalker wrote:dont know, but their kids seem to do well in this regard.

Yousef wasn't one of the suicidal ones; he was one of the organizers.

onebir -- interesting, thanks
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Re: Brussels

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:19 am

onebir wrote:
Steve James wrote:Muslims don't represent God and don't show the face of their Prophet. That's their tradition.

Not exactly apparently:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad

I think there are also hadith prohibiting depictions of humans, animals etc - also applied quite unevenly. (Otherwise no TV ;)


Yeah, some Muslims traditions show Muhammad, primarily among Persian/Iranian sources. It is a Sunni v Shia thing in some respect, but totally cultural. I don't think it has anything to do with tv, though Persian movies are really big. There was even one about Muhammad.

The argument against portraying Muhammad at all is based on the fact that no one has seen any holy person, so any picture is a lie. The argument against portraying or making an image of God/Allah is scriptural for all Abrahamic religions.
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