Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Marko on Thu May 12, 2016 12:14 pm

Ah Louis wrote:
Marko wrote:John, what are you saying here, exactly? Is your only beef about this the "westerner" issue? From your post about Kiyamakan Dojo it seems you question the very ranking of Roy Goldberg within your school.

Since you have stated doubts in the veracity of information on the Kiyamakan Dojo due to the fact the page belongs to Goldberg sensei's student, do you believe the bio isn't real and that Roy Goldberg isn't the highest ranking student of Kiyama sensei and is not the only non Japanese holder of Kyoju Dairi in the Kodokai? The implications would be huge, IMO.


Marko, to help you with your question, allow me to direct you to my previous post in this thread. :)


Thanks for the explanation, John. I agree that it is best you drop the issue :)

Marko

EDIT:

John, I've just seen that you have added to your last post, so here's an edit to mine as well.

The term "Westerner" is used, within martial arts community, times and again to denote non-Asian practitioners of Asian martial arts. It is a known usage of the word and you can see it repeatedly used as such, both on this forum and elsewhere. It may not be to your liking, and it may well be racist, but it doesn't change the fact that it is used. No one here would equate "Westerner" in the context of martial arts to "anyone living in the Western World" as you suggest. As I said upthread, specificity trumps general definitions, even when language is concerned.

As for rank, I agree that being precise is an important thing, but you have noted yourself, with quoting Dan, that no one actually claims Roy is the highest ranking Westerner (definition above applies) in the world. The claim is that "no other Westerner holds" 7th Dan and Kyoju Dairi both. If that statement is not true, you have a case. If it's true, no corrections are necessary and you just come off as a person who, for his personal issues with one teacher smears the reputation of another who is also your senior in your own line of Daito Ryu.

Marko
Last edited by Marko on Thu May 12, 2016 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Bodywork on Thu May 12, 2016 1:57 pm

Marko
He isn't saying anything because there is nothing to say.
This is all fake.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Marko on Thu May 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Yes, I think that's clear.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Bodywork on Thu May 12, 2016 4:56 pm

It will be worse when Roy offers his opinion of my work with aiki and what it can do
.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby allen2saint on Sat May 14, 2016 3:49 am

Marko wrote:
Ah Louis wrote:
westerner definition:
west·ern·er
/ˈwestərnər/
noun
a native or inhabitant of the west, especially of western Europe or North America.

You comment doesn't change a thing, the fact is the statement isn't accurate and should be corrected for the benefit of the readers.


A single word usually doesn't have just one or two meanings and often it can have further specific meanings that run contrary to the more general meaning of the same word. Not all definitions can be found in a general, online dictionary. The semantic change can turn a word's meaning over its head, over time – so now we have "villain" meaning a "bad guy" instead of its original meaning of "peasant", or "wicked" in its colloquial modern context meaning "great, brilliant" instead of its original meaning of "evil". Words have a host of meanings both current and past one chooses from when speaking or writing.

Context is what allows us to select the proper meaning of the word from a host of other meanings inherent in it. Westerner also means a person from a western part of any country, state or geographical region. It was also used to denote specifically people who lived in the second part of the XIX century in the American West. By extension it is also used for writers of western fiction during the pulp fiction age (and in the same vein, it was used for anyone who made westerns in the movie industry - actors, producers, writers, directors etc.).

The word also has a different meaning within the context of sociology where East-West dichotomy is cultural instead of geographical. Within it, westerner means a person from a western culture, not simply an inhabitant of the western hemisphere. "Easterners", in this context, become "Westerners" when they fully adopt Western culture. Of course, it works the other way around as well, so "Westerners" can become "Easterners". In practice, this is only true for later generations, not direct immigrants, as they never really fully adopt their new culture as they have spent their formative years in a different culture.

All these definitions of the word are correct. The accuracy comes from context, and while different people may interpret context differently (for a host of reasons), most people grasp what was meant, simply due to the fact that some pairings of meaning and context appear together more often than others.

As in many other things, deciding on the contextual meaning of the word, specificity overrides general definitions.

Marko



Marko,

While I think it is clear you are piling on Ah Louis to please your master when martial etiquette dictates that the argument should be left between them, I still feel it's important to tell you that this pseudo-intellectual nonsense gave me my first real laugh in what has been quite a stressful week. Thanks very much.
Last edited by allen2saint on Sat May 14, 2016 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Marko on Sat May 14, 2016 8:44 am

allen2saint wrote:
Marko wrote:
Ah Louis wrote:
westerner definition:
west·ern·er
/ˈwestərnər/
noun
a native or inhabitant of the west, especially of western Europe or North America.

You comment doesn't change a thing, the fact is the statement isn't accurate and should be corrected for the benefit of the readers.


A single word usually doesn't have just one or two meanings and often it can have further specific meanings that run contrary to the more general meaning of the same word. Not all definitions can be found in a general, online dictionary. The semantic change can turn a word's meaning over its head, over time – so now we have "villain" meaning a "bad guy" instead of its original meaning of "peasant", or "wicked" in its colloquial modern context meaning "great, brilliant" instead of its original meaning of "evil". Words have a host of meanings both current and past one chooses from when speaking or writing.

Context is what allows us to select the proper meaning of the word from a host of other meanings inherent in it. Westerner also means a person from a western part of any country, state or geographical region. It was also used to denote specifically people who lived in the second part of the XIX century in the American West. By extension it is also used for writers of western fiction during the pulp fiction age (and in the same vein, it was used for anyone who made westerns in the movie industry - actors, producers, writers, directors etc.).

The word also has a different meaning within the context of sociology where East-West dichotomy is cultural instead of geographical. Within it, westerner means a person from a western culture, not simply an inhabitant of the western hemisphere. "Easterners", in this context, become "Westerners" when they fully adopt Western culture. Of course, it works the other way around as well, so "Westerners" can become "Easterners". In practice, this is only true for later generations, not direct immigrants, as they never really fully adopt their new culture as they have spent their formative years in a different culture.

All these definitions of the word are correct. The accuracy comes from context, and while different people may interpret context differently (for a host of reasons), most people grasp what was meant, simply due to the fact that some pairings of meaning and context appear together more often than others.

As in many other things, deciding on the contextual meaning of the word, specificity overrides general definitions.

Marko



Marko,

While I think it is clear you are piling on Ah Louis to please your master when martial etiquette dictates that the argument should be left between them, I still feel it's important to tell you that this pseudo-intellectual nonsense gave me my first real laugh in what has been quite a stressful week. Thanks very much.


Allen,

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle, I think that if we could manage a few more laughs on the forum it would be a good thing :)

That pseudo-intellectual nonsense, it is important to be said, is first year philology, which was what I studied at university (and used in various writing/editing fields for over 15 years). I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm talking about bread and butter of my vocation. I was commenting on an argument that used an incomplete definition of a word to make a point, while neglecting the context it was used in. I've commented on translation issues and context with John before, on threads unrelated to Dan, so this is hardly a precedent.

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Ah Louis on Sat May 14, 2016 10:31 am

Marko wrote:
Allen,

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle, I think that if we could manage a few more laughs on the forum it would be a good thing :)

That pseudo-intellectual nonsense, it is important to be said, is first year philology, which was what I studied at university (and used in various writing/editing fields for over 15 years). I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm talking about bread and butter of my vocation. I was commenting on an argument that used an incomplete definition of a word to make a point, while neglecting the context it was used in. I've commented on translation issues and context with John before, on threads unrelated to Dan, so this is hardly a precedent.

Marko

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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby allen2saint on Sat May 14, 2016 4:02 pm

Marko wrote:
Allen,

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle, I think that if we could manage a few more laughs on the forum it would be a good thing :)

That pseudo-intellectual nonsense, it is important to be said, is first year philology, which was what I studied at university (and used in various writing/editing fields for over 15 years). I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm talking about bread and butter of my vocation. I was commenting on an argument that used an incomplete definition of a word to make a point, while neglecting the context it was used in. I've commented on translation issues and context with John before, on threads unrelated to Dan, so this is hardly a precedent.

Marko


And this pretentious bs gave me my second laugh of the week. Thanks again.
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Re: Dan Harden and Roy Goldberg in Florida Nov 11-13

Postby Marko on Sun May 15, 2016 3:07 am

allen2saint wrote:And this pretentious bs gave me my second laugh of the week. Thanks again.


Glad I made you laugh. Have a nice life :)
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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby meeks on Sun May 15, 2016 1:13 pm

Moving to the west does not make one a 'westerner'. Just like me moving to China did not make me 'Chinese', 'from the East', an 'Easterner', nor 'Asian'
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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby Steve James on Sun May 15, 2016 4:47 pm

If you're born in Japan, you're born in Japan. Whether that makes you an Easterner or a Westerner is just a matter of the perspective you want to take. There's no way to examine the question without taking a racial or culturally centric pov. What is a "westerner" anyway? If it means "someone born in the west," then Japanese people will never be westerners. Are Apaches considered westerners?

But, ok, a Japanese person is a westerner when he or she is born in Gifu or Nagoya. Of course, I don't think this thread is about that issue. I wish I could contribute that discussion... not. ;)
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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby Thin Ice on Sun May 15, 2016 9:12 pm

Steve James wrote:Whether that makes you an Easterner or a Westerner is just a matter of the perspective you want to take. There's no way to examine the question without taking a racial or culturally centric pov. What is a "westerner" anyway? If it means "someone born in the west," then Japanese people will never be westerners. Are Apaches considered westerners?


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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby Marko on Sun May 15, 2016 11:50 pm

meeks wrote:Moving to the west does not make one a 'westerner'. Just like me moving to China did not make me 'Chinese', 'from the East', an 'Easterner', nor 'Asian'


Exactly.
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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby Marko on Mon May 16, 2016 12:10 am

Steve James wrote:If you're born in Japan, you're born in Japan. Whether that makes you an Easterner or a Westerner is just a matter of the perspective you want to take. There's no way to examine the question without taking a racial or culturally centric pov. What is a "westerner" anyway? If it means "someone born in the west," then Japanese people will never be westerners. Are Apaches considered westerners?

But, ok, a Japanese person is a westerner when he or she is born in Gifu or Nagoya. Of course, I don't think this thread is about that issue. I wish I could contribute that discussion... not. ;)


You can examine a word's meaning from all these sides (and others, linguistics is a surprisingly wide field that spans several others), but yes, the history of this particular word is weighted with cultural connotation (much more so than racial, but racial to some extent as well, as per your Apache example, which was great, btw).

A third generation Asian (I'm using Asian here as a placeholder to include as many people from Asiatic countries, but this could also extend to any non-western culture like Russian, Serbian, Turkish, Greek, etc.), born in the USA - especially those who have lost connection to their mother tongue and original culture and hence were fully brought up in American culture, should be considered westerners (though I doubt that view is universal - to some Japanese is always Japanese, Greek always Greek etc).

Marko
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Re: when is a Japanese person a westerner and other important th

Postby Bodywork on Mon May 16, 2016 3:17 am

When is a foreigner not Japanese?

*Koryu teacher to a group of indoor, senior, long time students...." The truth behind these moves are reserved for the Japanese."
*Another Koryu soke:
"We don't let foreigners progress past this level."
*Takeda Sokaku Daito ryu founder to Sagawa (senior student)
"Don't teach foreigners, aiki ( internal skills) they are too big and this will give them an advantage."
*60 years later? He taught *one* foreigner.
*Japanese Shihan approaches Foreigner Shihan at aikikai headquarters:
"You are unusually strong what are you doing?" Internal power I train with another foreigner... You train internal power don't you?"
Japanese teacher: "Yes we do. But its always been taught in secret and NEVER with foreigners."
*Grand Master level Chinese Taiji teacher to me after doing push hands with me:
"You couldn't have learned this in Japan. The Japanese don't teach this."
To which, I said:
"Ya, unlike Chinese teachers who teach us everything."
He cracked up and said:
" Yes, yes. There are after all ONLY Chinese Masters."
*Don Draegers best friend, 36 years in Japan teaching foreigners how to do business with the Japanese, was lecturing us on behavior. One student says. " Sensei, after all this, let me ask you, why don't the Japanese - who NEED to do business with the west- learn OUR ways?"
To which he answered. "Oh, that's simple. They don't care."
*Later in his life, when his student base was rivaling Japan, the Japanese slammed him down stating:
"We only let you get this far because your wife was Japanese and a member!" (His Japanese wife was outraged)
*John Pearson's teacher:
"Danny, it's better to train with Japanese teacher than foreigner."

So....
We can debate and wonder just WHO is or isn't Japanese or a Westerner? (Or a racist)
One thing is clear.....
THEY?
HAVE NO DOUBTS.
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