the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Ah Louis wrote:

Marko wrote:John, what are you saying here, exactly? Is your only beef about this the "westerner" issue? From your post about Kiyamakan Dojo it seems you question the very ranking of Roy Goldberg within your school.

Since you have stated doubts in the veracity of information on the Kiyamakan Dojo due to the fact the page belongs to Goldberg sensei's student, do you believe the bio isn't real and that Roy Goldberg isn't the highest ranking student of Kiyama sensei and is not the only non Japanese holder of Kyoju Dairi in the Kodokai? The implications would be huge, IMO.

Marko, to help you with your question, allow me to direct you to my previous post in this thread.

Marko wrote:

Ah Louis wrote:
westerner definition:
west·ern·er
/ˈwestərnər/
noun
a native or inhabitant of the west, especially of western Europe or North America.

You comment doesn't change a thing, the fact is the statement isn't accurate and should be corrected for the benefit of the readers.

A single word usually doesn't have just one or two meanings and often it can have further specific meanings that run contrary to the more general meaning of the same word. Not all definitions can be found in a general, online dictionary. The semantic change can turn a word's meaning over its head, over time – so now we have "villain" meaning a "bad guy" instead of its original meaning of "peasant", or "wicked" in its colloquial modern context meaning "great, brilliant" instead of its original meaning of "evil". Words have a host of meanings both current and past one chooses from when speaking or writing.

Context is what allows us to select the proper meaning of the word from a host of other meanings inherent in it. Westerner also means a person from a western part of any country, state or geographical region. It was also used to denote specifically people who lived in the second part of the XIX century in the American West. By extension it is also used for writers of western fiction during the pulp fiction age (and in the same vein, it was used for anyone who made westerns in the movie industry - actors, producers, writers, directors etc.).

The word also has a different meaning within the context of sociology where East-West dichotomy is cultural instead of geographical. Within it, westerner means a person from a western culture, not simply an inhabitant of the western hemisphere. "Easterners", in this context, become "Westerners" when they fully adopt Western culture. Of course, it works the other way around as well, so "Westerners" can become "Easterners". In practice, this is only true for later generations, not direct immigrants, as they never really fully adopt their new culture as they have spent their formative years in a different culture.

All these definitions of the word are correct. The accuracy comes from context, and while different people may interpret context differently (for a host of reasons), most people grasp what was meant, simply due to the fact that some pairings of meaning and context appear together more often than others.

As in many other things, deciding on the contextual meaning of the word, specificity overrides general definitions.

Marko

allen2saint wrote:

Marko wrote:

Ah Louis wrote:
westerner definition:
west·ern·er
/ˈwestərnər/
noun
a native or inhabitant of the west, especially of western Europe or North America.

You comment doesn't change a thing, the fact is the statement isn't accurate and should be corrected for the benefit of the readers.

A single word usually doesn't have just one or two meanings and often it can have further specific meanings that run contrary to the more general meaning of the same word. Not all definitions can be found in a general, online dictionary. The semantic change can turn a word's meaning over its head, over time – so now we have "villain" meaning a "bad guy" instead of its original meaning of "peasant", or "wicked" in its colloquial modern context meaning "great, brilliant" instead of its original meaning of "evil". Words have a host of meanings both current and past one chooses from when speaking or writing.

Context is what allows us to select the proper meaning of the word from a host of other meanings inherent in it. Westerner also means a person from a western part of any country, state or geographical region. It was also used to denote specifically people who lived in the second part of the XIX century in the American West. By extension it is also used for writers of western fiction during the pulp fiction age (and in the same vein, it was used for anyone who made westerns in the movie industry - actors, producers, writers, directors etc.).

The word also has a different meaning within the context of sociology where East-West dichotomy is cultural instead of geographical. Within it, westerner means a person from a western culture, not simply an inhabitant of the western hemisphere. "Easterners", in this context, become "Westerners" when they fully adopt Western culture. Of course, it works the other way around as well, so "Westerners" can become "Easterners". In practice, this is only true for later generations, not direct immigrants, as they never really fully adopt their new culture as they have spent their formative years in a different culture.

All these definitions of the word are correct. The accuracy comes from context, and while different people may interpret context differently (for a host of reasons), most people grasp what was meant, simply due to the fact that some pairings of meaning and context appear together more often than others.

As in many other things, deciding on the contextual meaning of the word, specificity overrides general definitions.

Marko

Marko,

While I think it is clear you are piling on Ah Louis to please your master when martial etiquette dictates that the argument should be left between them, I still feel it's important to tell you that this pseudo-intellectual nonsense gave me my first real laugh in what has been quite a stressful week. Thanks very much.

Marko wrote:
Allen,

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle, I think that if we could manage a few more laughs on the forum it would be a good thing

That pseudo-intellectual nonsense, it is important to be said, is first year philology, which was what I studied at university (and used in various writing/editing fields for over 15 years). I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm talking about bread and butter of my vocation. I was commenting on an argument that used an incomplete definition of a word to make a point, while neglecting the context it was used in. I've commented on translation issues and context with John before, on threads unrelated to Dan, so this is hardly a precedent.

Marko

Marko wrote:
Allen,

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle, I think that if we could manage a few more laughs on the forum it would be a good thing

That pseudo-intellectual nonsense, it is important to be said, is first year philology, which was what I studied at university (and used in various writing/editing fields for over 15 years). I'm not talking out of my ass, I'm talking about bread and butter of my vocation. I was commenting on an argument that used an incomplete definition of a word to make a point, while neglecting the context it was used in. I've commented on translation issues and context with John before, on threads unrelated to Dan, so this is hardly a precedent.

Marko

allen2saint wrote:And this pretentious bs gave me my second laugh of the week. Thanks again.

Steve James wrote:Whether that makes you an Easterner or a Westerner is just a matter of the perspective you want to take. There's no way to examine the question without taking a racial or culturally centric pov. What is a "westerner" anyway? If it means "someone born in the west," then Japanese people will never be westerners. Are Apaches considered westerners?

meeks wrote:Moving to the west does not make one a 'westerner'. Just like me moving to China did not make me 'Chinese', 'from the East', an 'Easterner', nor 'Asian'

Steve James wrote:If you're born in Japan, you're born in Japan. Whether that makes you an Easterner or a Westerner is just a matter of the perspective you want to take. There's no way to examine the question without taking a racial or culturally centric pov. What is a "westerner" anyway? If it means "someone born in the west," then Japanese people will never be westerners. Are Apaches considered westerners?

But, ok, a Japanese person is a westerner when he or she is born in Gifu or Nagoya. Of course, I don't think this thread is about that issue. I wish I could contribute that discussion... not.