bad assumptions on tjq

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

bad assumptions on tjq

Postby everything on Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:52 am

- it is "better" in every way
- it should only be used alone as a single style or else it's not this "better" art
- if you use anything else you're not "high level"
- training other arts will confuse it.

these assumptions aren't applied to bjj, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, judo, etc. ??? :-\ :-[
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:57 pm

Did you start this here or was it just immediately moved by the mods? :D

everything wrote:- it is "better" in every way
- it should only be used alone as a single style or else it's not this "better" art
- if you use anything else you're not "high level"
- training other arts will confuse it.

these assumptions aren't applied to bjj, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, judo, etc. ??? :-\ :-[


What I'll say concerning these assumptions is that Taijiquan is unique, complete, and difficult to attain.

"Better" is a meaningless term without some qualification.
Better for health than any other martial art? Unquestionably so in my opinion, show me another martial art that someone in a wheelchair can practice.
Better for general self defense? Depends on how diligently one practices and the quality of the instruction they receive. I don't feel that it takes 10 years to get any fighting benefit, but it definitely takes good practice.

The other two points, well, go back to my first point. It's unique, it's not like other styles, even Neijia, at a deeper level. It's got some similarities here and there with other arts, but it's also got some unique aspects that no other art has.

It is a complete art. Mastery of the art includes strikes, throws, locks, and grappling.

As we were discussing in the other thread, taijiquan has answers for any question your opponent may ask, but if you haven't studied it sufficiently or progressed to a suitable point in your study, you may not have that answer in the vocabulary of your practice. Studying other arts can lead you to supplying answers from those arts instead of from taijiquan.

But studying other arts can help you become a more complete fighter, sure. Depending on where you are in your study it can have different effects.

If you're early in your taijiquan and haven't yet discovered how to use it for self defense effectively, then studying another martial art, in my opinion, will simply give you the techniques of that art. If you've gotten a sufficient level in taijiquan then studying another art is simply another expression of your taijiquan, in my opinion. Once you've got the taiji in your body, everything is taijiquan. Before you get it, you run the risk of delaying progress by spending too much time in another system that you could be spending in your taijiquan.

The Gracies were of the opinion that all you needed was BJJ.

I think there is too much emphasis on UFC style competitions these days. That's not the be-all, end-all of martial arts expression, and honestly isn't even a very common self defense situation.
Soft is hard.
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby everything on Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:08 pm

There are many arts that have strikes, locks, grappling, such as sambo, judo, jujitsu, etc. TJQ is great for beginners and advanced MAists, but for some reason not for intermediate students. Mma is not end all, but it's demonstrated that specialized skills combined is the preferred training method for this sport. A boxing sport, bjj, a grappling sport (usually wrestling). Some notable champions such as Fedor and Rousey already came from the "complete" art background (sambo is mma), but still learned very specific striking. Fedor was especially brilliant at striking in his hey day, though casual observers might think he was a wild swinger only. Obviously Holm was vastly superior at boxing than Rousey. No doubt in theory, TJQ could help them further, but not as immediately as a pure striking specialization. The same is true for strikers who need grappling. A pure specialized art is better at the intermediate level. None of that means TJQ is bad. It's my first art so I see things through rollback, pull down, ward off, and split (many throws and locks). Eventually also mainstream mma people will look beyond Thai boxing plus wrestling plus bjj. Karate, taekwondo, judo already have been more incorporated. I don't know why there isn't a "Fedor style".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby RobP3 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:37 am

everything wrote:T I don't know why there isn't a "Fedor style".


There is, or rather his "casting" type strikes are seen in various Russian styles
"Remember, if your life seems dull and boring - it is" Derek & Clive
www.systemauk.com
RobP3
Huajing
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:30 am
Location: UK

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby everything on Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:01 am

Yes but I mean base an entire style on his style. Many many good articles on his techniques.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:56 am

That gets into another aspect of the art, personal expression.

Even among the Yang masters, there is a wide variance on the specific details of how they trained and expressed their taijiquan. Yang Shao Hou reportedly killed his own daughter in training, and Yang Pan Hou killed a random challenger with neck strikes while walking down the road without missing a step.

It comes down to the individual and how they train. Honestly, taijiquan has everything you need for whatever purpose you might need, but if you give up and start training something else to cover deficiencies in your gongfu, you're never going to get it, in my opinion.

True, if you're going to be a professional mma fighter, you're best served with the bjj, muay thai combo or whatever eclectic mix is the best these days, customized for your ring rules. Otherwise, taijiquan makes the most all around sense, provided you're getting good info and training it properly.
Soft is hard.
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby everything on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:36 am

LOL I do admire your strong bias. If I HAD to pick only one art to study or recommend, it probably wouldn't be TJQ BUT it's really the only art I keep up to some (hobby level) extent. So from a practical pov I do what you say and not what I would say. It's hard to be brutally honest about the art since it's mostly just a Rorschach test.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby Steve James on Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:14 pm

I think people who want to study tjq are confronted with a lot of claims, not assumptions. People who study tjq don't really need to make assumptions. The question is whether their claims are correct, and that depends solely on who is making the claim and what that claim is. For ex., how can one assume that tjq is better than anything? If it's combat or sport, a practitioner who's been in combat or sport can say that his tjq (or what he trained) either worked or didn't. I don't think that anyone, however, can assume he will win a fight.

The other issue is health. If the prospective student is infirm or unwell, then it tjq might be "better" for him than kyukushin karate. He might never be able to compete with the karate guy, but so what? Studies have been done on tjq for health. So, there's quantifiable information that prospective students can refer to if not rely upon.

Afa whether tjq --or, more specifically, someone who's been trained to fight using tjq-- can be as effective/successful as someone who's trained something else, I say yes. But, it depends on the individual and the training, not the name of the art.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15668
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:17 am

You forgot:

"Tai Chi is too dangerous to use in sparring or competitions." ;D

and a whole bunch of things like:

"Short forms will harm you as they circulate qi the wrong way"
"You must practice forms at least five years before learning push hands"
"Sparring will hurt your progress in Tai Chi"
"Practicing weight lifting is a no no if you study tai chi"

... :P
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5407
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:37 am

Bao wrote:"Short forms will harm you as they circulate qi the wrong way"


Personally, I feel that the Yang long form has the most benefit, for a couple reasons, so anything that doesn't offer as much benefit could arguably be said to harm, I guess?
Soft is hard.
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:58 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Bao wrote:"Short forms will harm you as they circulate qi the wrong way"


Personally, I feel that the Yang long form has the most benefit, for a couple reasons, so anything that doesn't offer as much benefit could arguably be said to harm, I guess?


I've heard and read several teachers stating this. Erle Montague wrote about this. He stated exactly that Qi must be led through a certain pattern, otherwise it will harm the body. And that short forms does not lead the qi in the right way through the body.

My teacher (well, the teacher with the most knowledge ) often said that it doesn't matter what style or length of form you practice. I agree. The most important principles should be the same in all tai chi. If it's not there, it's not tai chi.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5407
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: bad assumptions on tjq

Postby willie on Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:04 pm

Bao wrote:You forgot:

"Tai Chi is too dangerous to use in sparring or competitions." ;D

and a whole bunch of things like:

"Short forms will harm you as they circulate qi the wrong way"
"You must practice forms at least five years before learning push hands"
"Sparring will hurt your progress in Tai Chi"
"Practicing weight lifting is a no no if you study tai chi"

... :P


It is too dangerous for sparring. Fajin cant be turned down. It wouldn't be the same outcome anyways, so why bother?
You should forget about push hands for a few years and work on real taiji.
You should lift weights and get as strong as a bull!
willie
Wuji
 
Posts: 1559
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am


Return to Been There Done That

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest