External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:05 pm

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote: it would be interesting to read or hear of the accounting of YLC stay from a chen family member perspective.


For a while, Zhu Tiancai - his mother's name is Chen - had a sort of touring seminar. It was somewhat of a "canned" presentation in that the format and content was repeated at each location. As part of the formal lecture segment, he discussed the history of the Chen family art. That touches on Yang Luchan. I'll summarize the notes I took on the subject from this part of his lecture. How accurate his view is, I don't know. You asked for an account by Chen family members, so here is one:


ZTC stated that there are lots of movies about how YLC learned TJQ. The only fact is that YLC learned TJQ from Chen Village. Also true is that YLC first tried to learn Chen TJQ on his own without instruction.... A Chen family member owned a pharmacy in YLC's home town and YLC worked for him. When the family member retired, he returned to Chen Village and took YLC with him. YLC was in his 20's at that time.

At that time, there were many schools of Chen TJQ in Chen Village and villagers could choose from any number. As a servant, YLC had no right to study with them. At that time, one could see TJQ practiced openly everywhere in Chen Village - it was not taught in secret. YLC watched other people and practiced on his own.

YLC's friends, villagers who did practice Chen TJQ, would use YLC to practice on, to try techniques they had learned in class. Being a quick study, YLC learned many of the techniques and practiced by himself. One night an instructor saw YLC practicing by himself...eventually asking YLC to join the class.

YLC trained for 7 years, at which point his (retired) boss died and Village elders "freed" him, at which point YLC returned to his home town teaching Lao Jia.

This is an interesting variation of the story that very well could be closest to the "true" story......Some questions that would be interesting to get an answer on, as in the story YLC as working in the pharmacy practiced boxing "by him self and without instructions" but yet when his employer retired he let YLC follow him back to his home village, I feel that it actually seem that YLC got boxing instructions from his employer and later the employer thought YLC was good enough to come with him to the village to further his study?.....What kind of boxing did they practice in the village and what boxing did YLC practice before coming to the village? Since the Chen village is not too far away from the Shaolin temple one could suspect they practiced a or a couple of Shaolin boxing variations? And as previous stated YLC had already some knowledge in Hongquan(a Shaolin boxing style?)...The story says YLC was 20 years old when he came to the village, so another question that would be interesting to get an answer on-- how many years did YLC work in that pharmacy? did his boxing knowledge up till he left for the Chen village solely come from his employer whether he sneak peaked on his practice or learned hand on?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:15 pm

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Hmmm, so YLC went to the Chen village to practice Shaolin boxing ??


No, YLC already knew and studied Shaolin. Of course he was going to continue practice his own stuff when he got there (to work). Why do you believe that he should give up his practice? :-\

No I don't believe he was going to give up his "previous" practice. As I wrote in another post, Could it be that in the Chen village they practiced a form of Shaolin boxing that was similar or even the same as YLC previous had learned. He maybe went to the Chen village to further his knowledge in "his" Shaolin boxing style?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:45 am

nobody talks about whether fedor's style of judo or sambo or mma is "correct" or matches his teachers.

no one cares if tyson had a different style of boxing than mayweather, jr. or if one is more or less "correct".

it might be interesting to talk about what you think you get from whatever "style" and what your style is like, according to you. generally we might say taijiquan is "defensive" and "responsive" rather than "linear", "circular", "evasive", "aggressive" but what is your particular style like? it is going to be different from Yang's, Wu's, Chen's, Sun's, Fedor's, Tyson's styles, etc. even if you think you studied the exact same thing (which is impossible anyway).
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:42 am

everything wrote:nobody talks about whether fedor's style of judo or sambo or mma is "correct" or matches his teachers.

no one cares if tyson had a different style of boxing than mayweather, jr. or if one is more or less "correct".

it might be interesting to talk about what you think you get from whatever "style" and what your style is like, according to you. generally we might say taijiquan is "defensive" and "responsive" rather than "linear", "circular", "evasive", "aggressive" but what is your particular style like? it is going to be different from Yang's, Wu's, Chen's, Sun's, Fedor's, Tyson's styles, etc. even if you think you studied the exact same thing (which is impossible anyway).
very interesting post. I'm trying to figure out a good way to approach a reply. I think that good body mechanics is what makes Tai Chi so powerful. Note that I said powerful and made no reference to 4 oz. If you look at early Mike Tyson, you will see that his body mechanics were much better than in his later years. That's what separated him from the rest and made him a champion
Last edited by willie on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:37 am

But, lots of people learn boxing, but there's only one Tyson. There wasn't anyone like him or since. The same goes for Marciano, Pep, Ali, et al. It's hard to make a name for oneself, let alone become legendary. And, some of the best never even became champion. The same is true for every human endeavor, including tcc. Just because someone's style has this or that, even if that is the defining characteristic, it is no better nor worse than any other style. Imo, 50 year-old Tyson would still beat 99% of the people he could hit twice, no matter their style. Jmo.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:36 pm

yes, there isn't such a thing as "learn peek a boo" and you too can be like Tyson.

we seem to expect some very specific TCMA to look some very specific way. maybe that's reasonable. if there were a "Tyson" style and a "Mayweather Jr" style and all video and pictures of them were lost forever, in 500 years people might think they are different "traditional" arts and not sub-styles of one particular sport/ruleset.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:56 pm

Have you not seen the extensive descriptions of the various ways the Yang family expressed themselves?
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