External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:47 am

I'm not a convert, never practiced the spear
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:58 am

Is there anything you people won't quibble over?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:10 am

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)


Have you asked him? :P
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:43 pm

Image

Image
https://taiwanstories.wordpress.com/tag/hsinchu/

Nice temple good place to practice
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Ron Panunto on Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:18 am

Trick wrote:I'm not a convert, never practiced the spear


What's baffling is that if Yang Luchan's favorite weapon was the spear, then why didn't he pass along the Chen spear form to his heirs, i.e., why doesn't the Yang system have a spear form? I know they have a simple two person back and forth exercise, but there is no solo form. The Chen's have at least two spear forms, one of which is shorter, and one of which is quite long and sophisticated. They also have the long pole form.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:18 am

Not baffling at all. Most people teaching Yang don't have the whole system, which does contain spear
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:50 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
Trick wrote:What's baffling is that if Yang Luchan's favorite weapon was the spear, then why didn't he pass along the Chen spear form to his heirs, i.e., why doesn't the Yang system have a spear form?


Why surprised? Yang Luchan didn't learn TCMA only from the Chen's. Why do you believe that he must have got his spear from there?

And BTW, it was Yang Style that was first called Tai Chi, so we might just say that the original Tai Chi spear is the Yang Spear. Chen spear was something before that was anything called Tai Chi.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:19 pm

Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:
Trick wrote:What's baffling is that if Yang Luchan's favorite weapon was the spear, then why didn't he pass along the Chen spear form to his heirs, i.e., why doesn't the Yang system have a spear form?


Why surprised? Yang Luchan didn't learn TCMA only from the Chen's. Why do you believe that he must have got his spear from there?

And BTW, it was Yang Style that was first called Tai Chi, so we might just say that the original Tai Chi spear is the Yang Spear. Chen spear was something before that was anything called Tai Chi.

Ok, just want to clarify the quote is not from my writing. Although I agree somewhat with you Bao, and also somewhat with Ron to "why" did not Yang Luchan get his spear exercise from Chen family.......or maybe he did? I feel traditionally spear practice was what could be seen as back and fort practice as either done as solo exercise or with partner, I feel the spear was intended for battlefield combat. Complex spear forms may have developed later. Maybe when YLC learned at the Chen village the Chen family still/(only) practiced the battlefield spear? And that was what YLC learned? or as Bao say, the spear in yang Taiji was learned from an other source.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Ron Panunto on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:02 pm

Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:
Trick wrote:What's baffling is that if Yang Luchan's favorite weapon was the spear, then why didn't he pass along the Chen spear form to his heirs, i.e., why doesn't the Yang system have a spear form?


Why surprised? Yang Luchan didn't learn TCMA only from the Chen's. Why do you believe that he must have got his spear from there?

Because he studied with them for 18 years.

And BTW, it was Yang Style that was first called Tai Chi, so we might just say that the original Tai Chi spear is the Yang Spear. Chen spear was something before that was anything called Tai Chi.


Are you saying that Chen is not Taiji?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:07 pm

The name was first applied to Yang style, Chen family boxing appropriated it. :D
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:32 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
Bao wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:


Why surprised? Yang Luchan didn't learn TCMA only from the Chen's. Why do you believe that he must have got his spear from there?

Because he studied with them for 18 years.

And BTW, it was Yang Style that was first called Tai Chi, so we might just say that the original Tai Chi spear is the Yang Spear. Chen spear was something before that was anything called Tai Chi.


Are you saying that Chen is not Taiji?

Since YLC acknowledged his boxing came from Chen family, so at that instant when a scholar(I think it was?) named YLC's boxing skill Taijiquan Chen family's boxing also got that label, without them knowing about it 8-)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 am

Trick wrote:Since YLC acknowledged his boxing came from Chen family, so at that instant when a scholar(I think it was?) named YLC's boxing skill Taijiquan Chen family's boxing also got that label, without them knowing about it 8-)


He has also acknowledged that he was already a good fighter and know Xiaohongquan very well. He seem to have. Also, YLC only learned some parts of the Chen family arts, so there is no "pure" Chen transmission from the Village to YLC. The name was meant for the art of YLC, not for the boxing arts that could be found in the Chen village. The Chens only adopted the name when they wanted to earn money like YLC and sons. Therefore, Yang style is the first "Tai Chi" style and Chen boxing should not be called Taijiquan.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:21 am

Bao wrote:
He has also acknowledged that he was already a good fighter and know Xiaohongquan very well. He seem to have. Also, YLC only learned some parts of the Chen family arts, so there is no "pure" Chen transmission from the Village to YLC. The name was meant for the art of YLC, not for the boxing arts that could be found in the Chen village. The Chens only adopted the name when they wanted to earn money like YLC and sons. Therefore, Yang style is the first "Tai Chi" style and Chen boxing should not be called Taijiquan.


This is not quite right not that it mattes much.

"At one of the first government sponsored traditional martial art competitions in Beijing, in 1952, Chen Fake was invited to attend, as one of the judges.

The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge. A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged. Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division. At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan.

What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.

Others countered that it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan, so it should be included as part of the Internal Division. Master Wu Tunan did not concur. He felt that Chen Style should be treated as an external style, similar to Shaolin. Someone turned to Chen Fake, Master Chen, you are the standard bearer of the Chen Family, is it external or internal?

Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external! We did not have this distinction at home. (Later on, in a remarkable reversal of logic, this statement was actually quoted by some as proof that Chen Style Taijiquan is not the original source of Taijiquan, since family member Chen Fake did not even acknowledge it as an internal style.)

Hong Junsheng, a disciple of Chen Fake, was understandably upset about this treatment of Chen Style. He began his Taiji studies with Wu style, and later switched to Chen Style. For him, Chen and Wu were both authentic Taijiquan styles, and both were internal.

He begged his teacher for an explanation. Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it. My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style].

My father practiced it.

I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!"

http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/


Sounds like a true master and good man...

As to the teachings of the yang style

"One of the persistent myths in Taiji is that when Yang Luchan went to Beijing, he made the training easier by taking out all the hard stumping and jumps from the form to make it easier for the nobles. There has been two reasons supplied for his doing so: 1) the form would otherwise be too difficult for the nobles, 2) he didn’t want to teach the real art to the Manchurians who invaded and took control of China in 1644. If we just take a step back and take a look at everything else we know to be true about the martial art scene in Beijing at the time, we can easily conclude this not to be true.

To start, both of these reasons implies the true essence of Taiji lies within powerful stumps and high jumps. But those are not what make basic Taijiquan skills work, or makes it different from other martial art right? If we want spectacular high jumps and kicks, none can surpass those in modern Wushu.

Are those Wushu’s athletes’ competition more authentic than even the classical forms then? As for powerful Fajin in strikes, out of the Big Six martial arts of the north, Tongbei and Baji are the ones most famous for that. In terms of stumping, Baji and Xingyi emphasize those in their training more than other arts. The essence of Taiji is using subtle circular forces to change the direction of the opponent, taking him off his center before he is aware."
https://internalmartialart.wordpress.co ... continued/


Yangs "style" while originating from the Chen, is unique and uses a what seems to be a very different approach then Chen stylist...later to be reflected in in his sons achievements developing different lines, and other masters teaching of the style, Wu, Sun, ect.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:19 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Since YLC acknowledged his boxing came from Chen family, so at that instant when a scholar(I think it was?) named YLC's boxing skill Taijiquan Chen family's boxing also got that label, without them knowing about it 8-)


He has also acknowledged that he was already a good fighter and know Xiaohongquan very well. He seem to have. Also, YLC only learned some parts of the Chen family arts, so there is no "pure" Chen transmission from the Village to YLC. The name was meant for the art of YLC, not for the boxing arts that could be found in the Chen village. The Chens only adopted the name when they wanted to earn money like YLC and sons. Therefore, Yang style is the first "Tai Chi" style and Chen boxing should not be called Taijiquan.
. Think it would not matter whether they called it Taiji or not, when it got known that actual Chen family members where in town(Beijing) to teach the boxing that the invincible YLC spent a considerable amount of time to study they would attract students anyway......"Xiao Hongquan" is this the same Hongquan that the Chen family supposedly developed their boxing from? If so maybe YLC sought out the Chen family in hopes to further his knowledge in Hongquan or maybe more specific Chen family's evolved Hongquan?.......For sure I can understand calling the boxing one teach for Hongquan would not "stick out" even if you where an invincible fighter. I guess much boxing arts in Beijing back then referred to the Shaolin, Shaolin boxing maybe was too mainstream so why not give ones teaching a spiced up name....Taijiquan 8-)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:39 am

Find it a little curious why only one of Yang Luchan's students went to study some with the Chen family, Wu Yuxiang seem to have been able to study with them through YLC's introduction.
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