External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:48 am

It's an interesting historical discussion and all that, but we (I'll include myself) always sound like middle-school boys asking who would win in a fight? Species X or Y? Comic book character A or B? The argument we're having is about as logically defensible as those kinds of discussions (well there are lots of good cat vs. snake videos and my money is usually on the cat after watching too many of those videos).
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:51 am

I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of yang is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:54 am

everything wrote:It's an interesting historical discussion and all that, but we (I'll include myself) always sound like middle-school boys asking who would win in a fight? Species X or Y? Comic book character A or B? The argument we're having is about as logically defensible as those kinds of discussions (well there are lots of good cat vs. snake videos and my money is usually on the cat after watching too many of those videos).


I'm not talking about the practitioner, I'm giving a fair unbiased opinion of the martial material itself.
I believe that In the end, it really is the practitioner, regardless of style. But if the material is more advanced, why not just learn it?
Last edited by willie on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:56 am

oragami_itto wrote:I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of trans is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.


trans?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:57 am

definitely. side note: this next statement you make is how "cat style" and "snake style" and "white crane" got started. a bunch of ancient kungfu dudes had this same discussion about cat vs. snake, etc.. in this hypothetical discussion, I'm attracted to "cat" and less "white crane" (what is the taijiquan connection to white crane btw?)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:35 am

willie wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of trans is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.


trans?

Worst. Autocorrect. Ever.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:10 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of yang is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.


Unless you've studied Chen personally how can you call the original Taiji less sophisticated than an offshoot? You should go out and look at some good Chen players. Too much has been left out of the Yang system.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:38 pm

charles wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:I think you got that backwards Willie. Yang style has some of the things that Chen has, but they are still missing a lot. Take for example the Kuandao. Chen Taiji was founded on the principles of movement of the Kuandao, which was Chen Wanting's favorite weapon, yet the Yang's deleted it from their repertoire. Yang Taiji is but a shadow of Chen.


Funny you should mention that. Just the other day, I was walking down a dark alley with my Kwandao on my back. Well, if hadn't been for having my Kwandao, I'd have been toast when those 6 big guys jumped me. Since I had it with me, they all went running away, those that could still get up.

The problem with practicing guandao is that you need a lot of room, so I went to the nearest state park to practice. A park guard called the police and one approached me with a gun in his hand and told me to drop the weapon. Fortunately, I wasn't arrested, but just chastised about bringing an edged weapon to a state park. I went home, traced the guandao blade onto some 1/4 inch plywood, cut out the plywood pattern and attached it to a wooden staff. Now no one bothers me.

What makes you believe that Chen Taijiquan was founded on the principles of movement of the guandao?

Similar foot work and body postures, especially in the fighting form.

To follow that reasoning, if one hasn't studied and doesn't practice the guandoa, one hasn't understood the art or can't obtain high-level skills at the art? Where does that leave Hong Junsheng, a Chen practitioner who didn't learn or practice the guandoa?

That can be said about any of the weapons - why study the jian or dao? Chen also has double jian and double dao and double maces and spear and staff and flailing stick, all of these are lost to the Yang stylist, i.e., missed opportunities to study traditional weapons of the original system.

Clearly, you guys haven't met the right Yang stylists. The "right" ones are just as martially effective as many Chen stylists and more effective than many others. Most Chen stylists have little martial effectiveness, just like most Taijiquan practitioners of any other style.

This is true, I also have met some very talented Yang players.

Style wars are silly. There are a small number of highly-skilled, highly martially-effective practitioners in each of the major styles of Taijiquan. There are also a large number of un-skilled, non-martially-effective practitioners in each of the major styles of Taijiquan. What the small number of highly-skilled, highly martially-effective practitioners have in common is not that they know and practice the guandao.

How're your guandao skills?

As poor as any other of my Taiji skills.

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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of yang is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.


Unless you've studied Chen personally how can you call the original Taiji less sophisticated than an offshoot? You should go out and look at some good Chen players. Too much has been left out of the Yang system.


Well, at the base of it, I'm making a meaningless judgment in ignorance, but this is BTDT so I feel comfortable indulging the impulse.

More doesn't mean better, and less doesn't mean worse.
Maybe sophisticated is the wrong word. It seems more elegant to me, from a design perspective.

If, as you say, Chen style is based on the kuandao, then Yang's refinement is based on the spear. If we accept these statements as true, then we can arguably compare the weapons to their respective arts and draw meaningful conclusions.

The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".

Personally, I've got a lot of respect for most everyone I've met. Pushing hands with a good chen player is like wrestling an oak. The good yang players are like ghosts. You can't touch them and they are freaking spooky.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:36 pm

oragami_itto wrote:I don't know much about Chen style. I know that what I know of yang is far more sophisticated than anything I've seen out of any Chen folks.

I use to feel this way too before I met with "Chen and HunyuanTaiji folks" in Beijing and Dalian. And actually before that the only experience I had with ChenTaiji was from just reading articles and seeing some film clips of it, and that was of course not much to compare with
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:49 pm

oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:53 am

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)


But he's a God, right, so the weapon is just for show
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:04 am

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)

And the first and foremost "invincible Yang"- the legendary General Yang Ye who most certainly participated in "real" combat is often depicted holding a Guandao 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:14 am

oragami_itto wrote:
Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)


But he's a God, right, so the weapon is just for show

Ha, most certainly elevated to Godly status because of his superior combat skills using a Guandao. Enemy spears most certainly seemed as tiny toothpicks when General Guan pointed his mighty Guandao at them 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:25 am

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The spear is a more elegant and sophisticated weapon. Depending on who you ask, they might say the sword or the spear is the king of all weapons, but no-one will answer "the kuandao".
.

Ha, What weapon is the favo weapon of Guan Yu, the GOD of war 8-) 8-)
oragami_itto wrote:But he's a God, right, so the weapon is just for show

Ha, most certainly elevated to Godly status because of his superior combat skills using a Guandao. Enemy spears most certainly seemed as tiny toothpicks when General Guan pointed his mighty Guandao at them 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


So ONE GOD can make it work and suddenly you're a convert, huh? Why don't you marry the Guandao if you love it so much. :P :D
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