Baguazhang Survey - North America

[Chris McKinley]

The guy who posted on the "ParryPersons First Bull Posting" link sounds exactly like the guy I've chatted with. And like I said, he seemed like a nice enough guy in there. While there's no excuse for the behavior of whoever Newbzor was on Bullshido, made worse by the dishonest backpedalling, perhaps that person had been told by someone from the Lee organization that Painter was fraudulent, since they both compete for the same market in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. I'm purely speculating, of course, but it seems at least plausible to me.

[ParryPerson]

I am ParryPerson, and I am respectful, as anyone who has talked to me will tell you. I also don't know how I am a liar, but thats ok.

If I worried about everyone on the internet my life would be very short indeed.

I see no point to this personal war on me. Dale, I hope you've given everyone else that has posted in this thread

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8657

The same kind of treatment you have given me, otherwise that would be quite unfair.

[iwalkthecircle]

http://baGua.Zhang.willkillusall.com/

[shock and awe]

Parry you don't want to be closing doors in the art you want to persue. Don't get caught up in other peoples drama. The majority of bullshido if given any reason would make any teacher look ridiculous.

[ParryPerson]

I think it's up to my personal opinion as to what I find funny and/or ridiculous. I'm not going to lie, and I figure most people (most) would be grown up enough to let people have their opinions, however misinformed, without throwing a fit online.

[Dale Dugas]

Casey,

you are a liar.

you started a thread against my teacher on Bullshido, you said:

"Was just wondering BS's thoughts on Bagua, (why aren't there any sparring videos?) and what they think of the system. I've found most teachers are complete garbage and most names you first come across with regards to it ("Dr" Painter for one) are simply ridiculous.

You started this, opened this door, and then expect people to believe you are respectful?

You are far from it.

You are welcome to your opinions.

They are wrong, and you should really meet people and feel out their skill rather than be a total lemming like so many out there and believe what others say rather than what you can see, feel, and comprehend.

You have no concept of Wu De, that is obvious.

Good luck with training with your teacher, when he finds out how respectful you are to others. He might think twice.

[ParryPerson]

Incredible.

EDIT: And he knows how respectful I am to others, thank you Dale.

[Chris McKinley]

If you're implying that your teacher approves of the way you're shit-talking another teacher without touching hands with either him or any of his students, all while you still don't know the first damn thing about Bagua as a fighting art, then I just lost a helluva lot of respect for your teacher. Now, on the other hand, if he wouldn't approve of your behavior, then your dragging his name through the mud by implying that he's on board with it constitutes a whole new level of disrespect for him. Are you sure that's what you want to achieve here?

[ParryPerson]

I'm saying my teacher (I'm not currently taking classes) knows me in real life and could probably tell you how I act.

This isn't about my teacher, this is about me. The baguazhang thread on Bullshido was made because I thought there needed to be one, and because when one searches baguazhang, one finds jiulong first page, and linage debates and photoshopped picture debates the next.

For anyone researching baguazhang, this would be "ridiculous" or confusing. Not everyone who is interested in baguazhang is going to fly out to spar with a jiulong guy.

Maybe somehow I'm being taken in a way I don't see as coming off.

If you think I shouldn't say anything because I haven't seen his prowness in person, that is your opinion, one I don't think is right, but an opinion none the less.

I'm not going to lie, at bullshido I lashed out simply because of the attitude there. I do think things are ridiculous and I do think some things are funny.

Other people do to.

I'd like to continue training at some point, but if Dale wants to wage war against me and spread things about me he thinks are horrible, I can't stop him.

I still hold my personal convictions.

[jafc]

Parry,

if you don't have much experience with bagua, how then can you judge by looking at pictures? if you think a system is crap, how do arrive at that conclusion without ever having met or tested anyone from that system?

it has been my experience that internet videos can be very confusing. most people are amateur videographers & the angles are off, it is hard to see, the camera is shaking, blah blah blah. it is better to just investigate yourself or tout the positives of your system rather than dump on something you have never seen up close. I think that is why people call your behavior disrespectful

JC

[Doc Stier]

Parry:

My opinion and advice, for whatever it may be worth to anyone, is always the same in these disputes.

Talk is cheap, but hands-on personal experience is worth it's weight in gold. As such, a time honored tradition in the Chinese martial arts is simply to respectfully reserve judgment about someone's skill until you physically cross hands with him and thereby come to personally validated conclusions.

Even no-name practitioners and teachers deserve the benefit of a doubt until this is done, and established practitioners and teachers like Sifu Painter most certainly deserve such courtesy before being publicly labeled a fraud.

I have known Dr. Painter for nearly 25 years, and have personally seen and felt his skills on multiple occasions. His gung-fu is very real, IMO.

Visit the man and experience his skill live and in person. Be prepared to offer a humble apology, and make sure your health and accident insurance coverage is up to date and in full force before you go.

Doc

[Chris McKinley]

Yeah, see....the problem with that Parry is that you don't have any convictions to hold, you only have first impressions. By your own admission, you don't know about who's who or what's what in the Bagua world. Also by your own admission, you simply did a Google search of Bagua, and are now basing all of this nonsense off a bad first impression of Painter's web copy. Those aren't well-thought-out, strongly-held convictions, those are first impressions that you are clinging to out of pure cognitive dissonance, since you will not admit that you've behaved in any way inappropriately. This causes you to refer to your impressions as convictions, elevating them to a status (in your mind) where they represent strongly held personal beliefs worth fighting for.

This also causes you to reframe the entire fiasco as not simply you as a newb getting caught mouthing off to gain rapport with the other teenagers at Bullshido about a first impression of Painter, one of their perennially favorite targets, but rather as a personal war against you (as if you were that important to anyone in the Bagua world), presumably started by Dale Dugas for no reason at all, and then later enjoined by everyone else. I hope you're still able to see the comic paranoia in that perspective.

What's kinda nasty about cognitive dissonance is that the longer you feed it, the deeper the hole it requires that you dig for yourself, and eventually you get to a point where admitting you were in error is so painful and would result in such public embarrassment that you no longer have the fortitude to actually do it, even if you wanted to.

[ParryPerson]

I really don't like assumptions, I never said I just did a "google search" and came to a conclusion. I'm saying what most people would find.

I don't think I've ever said jiulong was useless, or crappy. I'm saying the pictures look funny to me, and the linage and other aspects are pretty "ridiculous" as well (to me) from research I have done, however much "research" you think I might have done.

I have already told Dale he would without a doubt beat me to a pulp and that jiulong guys do have very real skill.

I don't see how the 2 can't co-exist, or am I crazy here?

If I went to lock hands with Dale, and he tossed me around like a bean bag, I'd still think the same thing, so I'm not really seeing how this makes any sense. Like I said I think I'm coming across a way I'm not meaning to.

[Chris McKinley]

You're backpedalling again, man. There's no assumption being made...you explicitly said, "The baguazhang thread on Bullshido was made because I thought there needed to be one, and because when one searches baguazhang, one finds jiulong first page, and linage debates and photoshopped picture debates the next.". Put that together with what you've repeatedly told me in chat that you are brand new to Bagua and don't know anything about it, and voila....you get a deduced conclusion without any assumption necessary.

RE: "I don't think I've ever said jiulong was useless, or crappy.". Now you're childishly equivocating. I believe the term you used was "ridiculous". If you're seriously suggesting that there's a significant difference between that and the terms you now introduce, "useless" and/or "crappy", then one wonders how long it will be before you're arguing over the definition of what "is" is. Further, after being encouraged to go and actually touch hands, reserve judgment, or at the very least to find out more before you pronounce final judgment, you refused and instead made claims of being warred against. You also stated that you weren't going to lie, when no one has asked you to. You also said that you were going to hold to your personal convictions, which I've already exposed as merely first impressions backed by cognitive dissonance.

You still have yet to acknowledge your inappropriate behavior, and at the end of the day, unless and until you do that, there's not much point in your trying to sell your position to anybody. We're not buying.

[ParryPerson]

None of my behavior was inappropriate.

A lot of twisting of words is going on, and I can see the underlying reasons why. My simple points continue to be ignored, in favor of some made up assumptions.

I'll end with what I've been saying all along and most people would agree with me on.

Painters linage and marketing is HILARIOUS. Period. I find it funny.

Does this mean that him and his students don't have amazing skill? No, it doesn't.

I think that is all I'm going to say on the matter due to a lot of buddy-buddy/politics stuff. No one will listen to reason.