All down hill from here: BJJ in China

[JAB]

http://www.adcombat.com/Article.asp?Article_ID=17201

[klonk]

Hmm. Let a few more centuries go by, more muddling of martial arts history, more relationships forgotten, and historians will never, ever figure out where jiujitsu came from!

[ashe]

It was inevitable.

[JAB]

ACtually everyone is rather clear as to where it came from. Not quite the problems that CMA have!

[Kurt Robbins]

Cool

[neijia_boxer]

this thread should be retitled is all UP hill from here.

If we look at the orgins of Jujitsu it has roots in Chinese martial arts. 'Ju' in japanese is 'gentle' so ju-do and ju-jitusu both have the same philosophy as using mind and technique (yin) over physical strength and brute force (yang). I not sure what the chinese equivent to 'Ju' is just yet.

i am looking forward to learning more jujitsu. i been rolling at www.usajj.com (helping with building network) and the owner is 60 years old black belt under the gracies and teaches military and civilians. He is awesome and very good at his age. He started when 52. they are gunning to build for a ameteur league (AAU) in the USA and eventually Olympics.

i think sports jujitsu is a good thing and makes for a more complete martial artist. the Early UFC's were a wake up call.

[JAB]

NB -
The title was meant tongue in cheek I agree. Uphill for sure. I just can't wait to hear what the "traditionalists" have to say

There is little empirical proof that Japanese art derived from Chinese, though it would make sense it many instances. But just cuz' is not a viable reason IMO.
Ju= rou = soft

[Bodywork]

NB -
1. There is little empirical proof that Japanese art derived from Chinese, though it would make sense it many instances. But just cuz' is not a viable reason IMO.
Ju= rou = soft

Really?
1. There are many Chinese references in Japanese Makimono (scrolls of transimssion) interestingly enought written down not in Japanese-but in the original Chinese. also of interest-to me anyway-is that some are specific exercies for internal development. Funny enough I first learned the concepts of borrowing energy and "listening"and series of internal training exercises in?.....a Japanese art.

2. The title was meant tongue in cheek I agree. Uphill for sure. I just can't wait to hear what the "traditionalists" have to say

2. Uphill how? Why?
BJJ being an improvement? Not really. BJJ is as limited as many other sports. As the UFC continually proved out in its evolution. Throw in men who understand how to wrestle and can hit and kick and ...well..the results speak for themselves. Royce was beat by a high school wrestling farm boy from Iowa. Again what I find more interesting is the total lack of discussion of where internals fit in to a force-on-force all out engagement. It would appear that for many here, its an alien concept. As a discussion-a non starter. I for one can think of any number of benefits and real world power generation and takedown resistence and control- all due to internal training-that work amazingly well in grappling. And that without any apparent techniques from the big Three ICMA. Just fighting.
Oh well.

Ju-jutsu (the art of pliancy or softness) is in fact seldom that. Most / many have turned into hard external muscle driven power plays. This was bemoaned by many of the early Judo / jujutsu men-most notably Kano himself the arts creater who watched it all turn to shit before their own eyes. Oddly we call what happened "great," they publicly critisized the death of their original intent. Never a culture to be discouraged by our elders we charged ahead sure of the knowledge we half learned from our betters. Were you to have this discussion with some Menkyo holders they would bemoan what has become of the arts as well. Most men have no patiance for training soft. Worse, the ignorant who took the easier path have prevailed and many became teachers and seniors who are further ruining their own arts and don't even know it. There is a backdrop of senior men who know the truth and look at the change for what it is. Ignorance and laziness...the easy path. That said, there are grapplers who are and were hell bent on learning at least to relax and use postional dominance and change in grappling even sequential relaxation which I first learned in the eraly 80's from Greco Roman guys. None of which incoporated internal connections and power generation. Which is a large step upward.
So, for anyone to think BJJ is an "improvement" to the big three ICMA. is a damning statement for both sides. It expresses ignorance on the on hand, and it reveals the lack of practical proof or defence (of Internal training) on the other. One can hardly blame either side for their hard one views.
We will have to wait and see with men taking their internal training out for a spin with the MMA crowd (which I think is superior to just BJJ training).

[JAB]

No time for the argument that is surely headed to BTDT!

I wonder why one does not see CMA in MMA!? Perhaps because they have NO GROUND GAME!!!! Same shit different forum.
I suppose you are one of those cats who will go on to tell me you cannot be taken to the ground because of your awesome Taiji root, or your circular stepping of Bagua right?
If you have not found those who are "soft" in BJJ, well....... then you have not rolled with anyone who has much talent then. Keep looking, it should not be hard to find. Easier IME than finding a "soft" "internal" "master" that is. But what do I know............

[Interloper]

The kind of CIMA and IMA that Bodywork is describing is not prevalent among Western practitioners. That's one reason you won't see CMA people in professional competitions. With genuine IMA skills and a good working set of striking skills, I'd suggest that a fighter could more than hold his ground over a grappler/ground game guy with no internal skills. The latter likely wouldn't even be able to enter to take the former to the ground, never mind keep him there without the grappler getting his ribs busted.

[Bodywork]

::)
No time for the argument that is surely headed to BTDT!

I wonder why one does not see CMA in MMA!? Perhaps because they have NO GROUND GAME!!!! Same shit different forum.
I suppose you are one of those cats who will go on to tell me you cannot be taken to the ground because of your awesome Taiji root, or your circular stepping of Bagua right?
If you have not found those who are "soft" in BJJ, well....... then you have not rolled with anyone who has much talent then. Keep looking, it should not be hard to find. Easier IME than finding a "soft" "internal" "master" that is. But what do I know............

I play with some serious grapplers and have for years and so have some of my guys. I like to grapple and I like BJJ and Judo. I am extremely conversent on the ground thank you very much from back in high school from wrestling to judo to jujutsu. On any other day I will join you and argue that if someone doesn't know the ground, they don't really know how to fight.
So...wrong guy, wrong argument. I don't think you really heard me and offered a knee jerk reaction to what you thought was yet another "traditionalist argument." My statement was more complex than that. As I said there is much that can be argued on both sides. People dismiss either side at their own peril.

I am discussing a horse of a different color. Internal training WITH ...MMA including the ground game.
And in case you missed it, and to clarify I said there are many men who work in a relaxed manner judo and Greco Roman, maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant to offer that as an ADDITION to the rather well know relaxed manner of rolling in BJJ. In other words it is nothing new to grappling. BJJ didn't invent it. They just popularized it. See my reference to greco roman
So to be clear. You are mixing the message. I grew up enjoying beating the crap out of all knids of TMA people by? grappling with them. Then later learned real power through internal training. BUT...I never, ever, would consider any other way of training than grappling.
The trouble is too many people have not learned real internal power and connection, and further go on to use it in more practical means. It doesn't matter which comes first, in my case it was grappling first. With others they can learnd to grapple later.
In the end you simply need to roll and fight in order to learn to fight and internal power increases your percentages dramatically. Simple statement.

[JAB]

I look forward to your videos where you fight "serious grapplers" and shut them down. Be happy to offer an apology if needed then. BJJ certainly did not "invent" anything, perhaps I misunderstood / read your statement.
I apologize if my reaction was "knee-jerk" but given the forum we are on, and some of the people who frequent it..... I hope you can forgive.

Interloper -
Your argument sounds much of the same we see everywhere. Words like "real / true" are often overlooked because no one in IMA are proving anything in any arena. Many argue that MMA / UFC is not the place...perhaps. But it is an open venue that anyone with talent can enter, and with little exception "prove" their ability and skill. We have yet to see ANY competent example of this coming from the CMA / IMA crowd. It really is that simple.
I again look forward to your video example of you shutting down seasoned grapplers. I call BS on your statements. Go to Iowa and get a sophmore to shoot on you. I look forward to his "busted ribs."
And comments like "...is not prevalent amongst Western practitioners" is another example of the BS I see often coming from those who have gone to China and now have yellow fever for lack of a better term. I have never been to China and have met men who have what you claim is unique. And they are westerner's!!!!

Jake

[Interloper]

Jake,
Ain't saying it's unique. Just not prevalent. BTW, some of the best IMA I've seen has been from Westerners. But there aren't a lot of them. A handful. I can also tell you that I've met some of the Chinese guys right here in the States, and they were... impressive. Even some seasoned grapplers trying to take them down couldn't enter, couldn't grab, couldn't take balance, couldn't even sweep a leg. They kept getting bounced off, or stuffed into their own feet. Or dropped on their butts. It's what got me tuned into IMAs in the first place.

IMO, internal methods are pretty esoteric, to the point that those who go into legitimate CIMA are less likely to be hardcore sport fighter types who would be attracted to pro sport MMA; they're more likely to be more intellectual or analytical martial artists who are into the process of learning IMAs for reasons other than sport competition. They aren't headed to the UFC. Add to that, that most internal teaching is encapsulated within an established art; very few people teach it at all (Asian teachers don't give away the goodies, I can tell ya); even fewer, if they do teach it, will teach it as a discrete skill set, free of an unencumbering style. What sport MMA guy is going to go through the hassle of finding a legitimate and willing teacher, and then want to get bogged down having to learn a "complete art," when what he wants and needs for his game are the rarified skills and body conditioning themselves, ready for him to use in a plastic and unfettered way, free from the limitations of style? It's a different mindset.

Sure, having a ground game, under today's UFC type sport rules, is valuable. Grappling rocks. But internal structure and power generation applied to grappling, trumps straight grappling. Internal structure and power generation applied to grappling, with a good solid set of striking skills added to it, makes you more powerful still.

[Formosa Neijia]

The really good thing about BJJ and arts like judo is that BS like "I can throw people around with my special internal skills" is routinely ignored unless it can be done in competition. If it can't be done there, then it's BS. Unfortunately IMA has no such limitation.

Dave C.

[JAB]

Much better put than I! I agree 100% Dave.
And that is my point Interloper (for christs sake would you guys use real names). Everyone can talk a game, and have great theory to rest on, but never testing the skill leads those of us to wonder. Not saying they do not have skill, just that it is hard to "prove" you can swim faster than Michael Phelps without ever jumping into the pool. Regardless of how good my posture is! This is why the CMA/IMA suffer IMO. Too many talkers, not any walkers.
Jake