Critique of Push Hands in the West.

[Waterway]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAV_Aur ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeqVJKg55g

These clips (Part 1 and 2 of the same thing) are from an America Taijiquan teacher. He is complaining about the standard and lack of understanding about Taijiquan Push Hands in the USA.

I have called the thread a "Critique of Push Hands in the West" because I think many of the issues that have been raised in these clips occur in places like Europe and many other places too in the West (though really they probably occur all around the world lol!).

I was just reading the thread regarding BJJ in China. I think that part of the reason IMA get such a bad rep in the West is very visibly demonstrated in the above clips. Compare the Push Hands comps in the USA and China. It is as though they are doing two completely different things.

I once heard an old saying that came from China " The further from the source of the river you go, the fouler the water gets". Don't know if that is true in all cases, but it seems to be that a lot of people are waayyyyyyy down the river!! I know I have seen a lot of bad IMA while looking for a class.

Just thought to put these clips up because, if nothing else, they show some nice push hands stuff from China!

[Darth Rock&Roll]

lol. sure are a lot of adipose people in the american versions.

fwiw, my training partner and i go for the more violently flavoured push hands, not unlike the chinese guys on the green matts in those clips. It's like sumo for skinny people with a little china na and takedowns! woot!

the others all sucked and rather badly too. Looked like they didn't understand the difference between push hands and listening energy drills and somehow mixed the two up and wound up with that shit they were doing.

[Chris Fleming]

Didn't we discuss this already?

[qiphlow]

many, many, many times.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

if you stay here long enough, it is inevitable there will be reiteration of topics.

martial arts are not limitless after all and are finite in their scope.

[TimHml]

lol. sure are a lot of adipose people in the american versions.

fwiw, my training partner and i go for the more violently flavoured push hands, not unlike the chinese guys on the green matts in those clips. It's like sumo for skinny people with a little china na and takedowns! woot!

the others all sucked and rather badly too. Looked like they didn't understand the difference between push hands and listening energy drills and somehow mixed the two up and wound up with that shit they were doing.

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

My youtube fu kinda sucks these days.

Peace
Tim

[Ron Panunto]

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

You mean you haven't seen any of the push hands death matches?

[Frank Bellemare]

Tim, take a look at this video, which was originally posted in this thread:
http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2431



I think that would qualify as good, more "violently flavoured" push hands.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

It's still quite subtle and there is still a lot of listening going on, but the force is generous as far as resistance goes.

[bruce]

lol. sure are a lot of adipose people in the american versions.

fwiw, my training partner and i go for the more violently flavoured push hands, not unlike the chinese guys on the green matts in those clips. It's like sumo for skinny people with a little china na and takedowns! woot!

the others all sucked and rather badly too. Looked like they didn't understand the difference between push hands and listening energy drills and somehow mixed the two up and wound up with that shit they were doing.

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

My youtube fu kinda sucks these days.

Peace
Tim

hi tim,

here is a bit of my push hands practice. they way you practice may depend on your goals.
for me push hands is a "safe" way to practice, refine and discover fighting skills. i think you must also "spar" too.
how do you practice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJM ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdmSCzk ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7y ... annel_page

[mixjourneyman]

Tim, are you the same Tim who was learning xingyi a few years ago and posting here sometimes.
If so, I thought of you recently.
Welcome back.

[TimHml]

Tim, are you the same Tim who was learning xingyi a few years ago and posting here sometimes.
If so, I thought of you recently.
Welcome back.

Damn Mix you got a good memory. That is exzackaree me!

How are things with you?

Peace
Tim

[TimHml]

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

You mean you haven't seen any of the push hands death matches?

No but I did see a chick get hit in the eye with a pretty nasty chi explosion. Too bad we aren't friends anymore. lol

I will look over these videos when I get back from shoping. Thanks for the info guys, I really appreciate it.

Peace
Tim

[TimHml]

lol. sure are a lot of adipose people in the american versions.

fwiw, my training partner and i go for the more violently flavoured push hands, not unlike the chinese guys on the green matts in those clips. It's like sumo for skinny people with a little china na and takedowns! woot!

the others all sucked and rather badly too. Looked like they didn't understand the difference between push hands and listening energy drills and somehow mixed the two up and wound up with that shit they were doing.

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

My youtube fu kinda sucks these days.

Peace
Tim

hi tim,

here is a bit of my push hands practice. they way you practice may depend on your goals.
for me push hands is a "safe" way to practice, refine and discover fighting skills. i think you must also "spar" too.
how do you practice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJM ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzdmSCzk ... annel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7y ... annel_page

I was hoping my response would bring out some good clips or something different. Thank you I like the work you are doing in the clips Bruce. Keep it up man... good stuff.

Peace
Tim

[Ba-men]

Does anyone have any videos of some violent push hands? Maybe since I haven't trained taichi in a while i am more militant and would like to see the more realistic version of push hands.

My youtube fu kinda sucks these days.

Peace
Tim

[/quote]

Without sounding like a quack....I think this is practical tui shou and draw from this type of stuff heavily

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lao69rFaW9w