Is this a joke?

[OldRed]

Is this guy for real?



My advice would be to pressure test this at a local open mat session...

[mixjourneyman]

This has been around here a few times.
My take on it is that Sam has really good push hands skills (know this from personal experience with his students), but he doesn't have a clue about ground fighting at all

[Bao]

Someone on the shenwu called this mental masturbation.

[OldRed]

Ok, sorry for bringing it up again if its been hashed over. Clueless mental masturbation. That about sums it up.

[DeusTrismegistus]

IME taiji can be very useful on the ground. However, the parts that are most useful are taiji emphasis on tingjin, on pengjin, and on following, and on learning how to seek to eleminate the pressure as well as change continuously.

[Formosa Neijia]

Yeah, it's a bunch of garbage. Don't use it. Don't do anything else that might be effective, either. Some of us like having the upper hand.

(Yes, I've found what he's doing useful.)

Dave C.

[OldRed]

Yeah, it's a bunch of garbage. Don't use it. Don't do anything else that might be effective, either. Some of us like having the upper hand.

(Yes, I've found what he's doing useful.)

Dave C.

I've no doubt listening skills and so forth have are a benefit to groundfighting. The real problem I have with this vid is not that its tai chi or what he's doing per se. Its that he's not doing it against a person with even a small amount of comfort on the ground and he himself displays a very limited understanding of how far such skills come into play in terms of using the whole body. IME, the act of pinning/gaining superior position and control, and maintaining it is pretty much the same thing I used to do in bridge hands training except that its with my whole body instead of focused primarily in the arms. So if you're getting something out of your IMA in ne waza, that's great! If its laying on your back playing sticky hands, well...remember to tap early and often. There's a gentleman who's a blue belt at the BJJ place I train at. He's also into tai chi and teaches a push hands class on Sunday mornings at the gym. He's hell on wheels down on the mat.

[mixjourneyman]

Dave I don't think anyone has said that IMA skills can't be used on the ground, but what Mr.Massich is showing will more than likely just get you grabbed and tapped before you have much of a chance to do anything.
I think Tim Cartmell's take on ground work is much more workable since he actually has some basic understanding of what bjj guys actually do on the ground

[mixjourneyman]

Just another thought: I think you could make his ideas work if you already know something about grappling, since you will know how to control angles and already know some escapes and how to set up submissions, but if he's selling this stuff to Aikido guys as a way that they can beat bjj people, well, I think they will be sadly surprised when they next roll.

[Michael Babin]

Sam has real martial skill -- not just push-hands skill -- and has a fair bit of judo/wrestling experience from his early days. I don't know enough of about the technical nature of ground work to comment on the level of expertise he displays in this clip but I wouldn't underestimate his ability to do what he teaches... whether those he teaches can use the same skills is problematic but that is true of any teacher, teaching any topic.

[mixjourneyman]

Yeah, I just wanted to add that from what I have seen of Sam's students, they have real taiji skill.
I was just commenting on the ground work only.

[qiphlow]

perhaps the gentleman in the vid was merely trying to show that the principles one develops in PH need not be restricted to when one is standing on one's feet.
pete should chime in on this, since he's recently gotten into grappling and has told me that his PH skills have helped him greatly with his learning process.

[everything]

of course listening is used in grappling.

of course push "hands" is push "body".

of course someone skilled in both ground grappling and taiji should be able to tell as well as show. this person doesn't have to be a champion in push hands or bjj or judo, but sure, that would perk our ears up more.

if this particular gentleman is expert in judo as well, surely his ne waza + taiji skill has some valid points. I didn't bother watching the whole video, though, so not sure if he is making actual technique points or just a "listening" point. I don't see why a demo video has to include resistance from someone else who knows a lot. demo videos are often (usually?) more interesting than sparring videos because it's easier to get an idea to go try.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

omg. that was some of the worst advice regarding ground fighting ever.
maybe he should just stick to tai chi...so to speak.

[OldRed]

I don't see why a demo video has to include resistance from someone else who knows a lot. demo videos are often (usually?) more interesting than sparring videos because it's easier to get an idea to go try.

Well that's just it. A demo video is fine, but demonstrating against an unskilled opponent shows next to nothing. Its a lot like demonstrating how to drive in NASCAR against an old grannie in a yugo. Sure its a car. Sure its a driver. But it sure as heck ain't the right way to learn how to race