using an jin to seal an opponents root?

[Bodywork]

Hi George
Nice to know real names
As far as size and muscle goes- I happen to train with men smaller and bigger than me, my best guy is 6' 3' and 280 lb and he routinely goes out to train various MMA and BJJ gyms as well. And outside guys I play with are my size or bigger. Oddly all of them note the power differential and none attribute it to muscle. But the use of mass and weight transfer is beneficial it pales in comparison to a connected body. This is evident in what generations of small men have been able to do in the CMA and JMA, and what my own people have pulled off in randori in other schools. I think I want to make a distinction here that I have taught a multitude of people of all different body types and sizes for durations of a few years to tfifteent years, so for me-and maybe just me- size has not been a determining factor in measuring types of power- connectedness was. I think many -though not all-people can feel the difference between muscle and connection. I hesitate you use the word muscle, I think a better term is shoulder since I have seen some people mistakenly attribute sharpness and penetrating pain as external and or all shoulder or muscle sourced power, and then I have seen master level teachers who recognized what they were feeling and applauded it and demonstrated more or the same. So not everyone sees which is which upon feel.

As far as mistaking internal / external in training?
Look anything I or anyone else will say will put people at odds here and turn into an argument. Maybe it can't be helped. From *reading* your description I would say that you cannot possibly be doing what we do. Otherwise you wouldn't say what you said. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Whatever works for you. We engage mind / body in antagonistic paths that are immediately known and realized, they are brutally hard to maintain mentally and physically, as in building heat and sweating while standing perfectly still with no ...physical tension...whatsoever. Yet the body is on overload through mental interaction while maintaining certain pathways. From there we go on to movement; holding the same lines either with wall exercises or on to one-on-one movements on to throws. As a basic model it does wonders for building a centrally held equilibrium which just does not want to be broken. It absorbs and redirects instantly and responds to the jujutsu game of push to pull and rapid set ups axiomatically, often leaving the opponent frustrated as hell. This training along with other things while contributing greatly to being a son of a bitch to being thrown (as many judoka have said "forget kake or tsukuri they can't enter to get kuzushi"),it also means when you move to throw having much greater force in doing so due to the way your body is connected. So for our purposes our training of mind /body is immediately active and real and it is unmistakably present for each person doing the exercises.
For the purposes of this thread it makes an jin far more than externally directing a force angled down or in.
I have not met the guy yet who said "eh..so so." to our exercises as they are indeed difficult and problematic. They are a perfect bitch to do correctly. In that sense it is nothing like doing a form or rote throwing kata -not that there is anything wrong with them either. When we combined our body conditioning to fighting forms with the way we use the body to throw hit or kick - it is immediately obvious to most that their own bodies are moving differently and with more effortless power. It seems (so far) to be an immediate or at least faster way to build internal power than what many have experienced by trying to get it through form work.

Since you make me nervous in possibly re-interpreting what I say in negative light I wish to stress again I am only discussing what works for us. it doesn't seem you are doing something related since you state that from your point of view you "don't get a lot of mileage differentiating internal from external."
From my POV
" it is unmistakably different " In fact for most visitors it is instantly challenging and fun. And in a year or so they immediately access a greater power differential. Then there is the waza and fighting skills which are a different subject.
But whatever works for you-as in all things-YMMV
Cheers
Dan

[DeusTrismegistus]

Bodywork,

Have you found that certain techniques have a difficult time in being executed on your students after they have trained with you a while? Like for example trips that rely on catching a persons leg as they step forward or set it down after a kick? In general I mean moves that rely on bodily momentum (which I mean to differentiate between the momentum of a single body part) to execute?

[johnwang]

but training the technique is not the same as training the internal connection.

It depends on how you train. I have a guy who used to do weight lifting. The 1st day that I showed him how to rotate a double heads weight bar, his body almost collapsed and dropped that weight bar. Some solo drill or equipment training will force you to develop "body connection" and you may not even notice it.

[cloudz]

it doesn't seem you are doing something related since you state that from your point of view you "don't get a lot of mileage differentiating internal from external."

Not any more, no. I did, but something changed. I guess it's personal and what works for us as individuals. I guess technically I do both by my definitions, but treat them as one. maybe that's something that won't make a lot of sense, just been my experience that led to my prefered view..

Dan & Tom I really appreciate you guys elaborating on your training and views on the martial arts - cool.

About the above quote.. In my training these days I don't really want to treat it as this or that, things may not be what they seem and we have more in common in how we train (you never know). Without training your methods i couldn't surely say anything for sure, but from the descriptions above it seems I would or at least could get similar things from some of the stuff i do train eg. nei gong, tai chi form, standing, push hands methods, The wall thing - yea sure I do that sometimes too. I've picked up methods from hsingi, bagua and yi quan as well as the tai chi that is my main focus.

I feel i have developed some attributes that have been mentioned, but hey..

I gave those definitions to hopefully get acrosss why i feel it is somewhat of a false dichotomy. Not that i dont recognise some methods being more internally driven than others. Some skills such as listening I recognise as completely internal. It goes back to my definitions. Only ultimately i treat my training as one.. I think more than anything we view our training differently rather than doing particularly different or unrelated things.

hopefully that will makes some sense..

cheers
george

[somatai]

great post Tom, i fully agree with the analysis........i also think that much of the problem is the over looked obvious or simply that the secrets protect themselves by lying in the open.....both Dan and Ark have great skill and a willingness and clarity to share it..

[D_Glenn]

... We engage mind / body in antagonistic paths that are immediately known and realized, they are brutally hard to maintain mentally and physically, as in building heat and sweating while standing perfectly still with no ...physical tension...whatsoever. Yet the body is on overload through mental interaction while maintaining certain pathways. From there we go on to movement; holding the same lines either with wall exercises or on to one-on-one movements on to throws. As a basic model it does wonders for building a centrally held equilibrium which just does not want to be broken. It absorbs and redirects instantly and responds to the jujutsu game of push to pull and rapid set ups axiomatically, often leaving the opponent frustrated as hell. This training along with other things while contributing greatly to being a son of a bitch to being thrown (as many judoka have said "forget kake or tsukuri they can't enter to get kuzushi"),it also means when you move to throw having much greater force in doing so due to the way your body is connected. So for our purposes our training of mind /body is immediately active and real and it is unmistakably present for each person doing the exercises.
For the purposes of this thread it makes an jin far more than externally directing a force angled down or in.
I have not met the guy yet who said "eh..so so." to our exercises as they are indeed difficult and problematic. They are a perfect bitch to do correctly. In that sense it is nothing like doing a form or rote throwing kata -not that there is anything wrong with them either. When we combined our body conditioning to fighting forms with the way we use the body to throw hit or kick - it is immediately obvious to most that their own bodies are moving differently and with more effortless power. It seems (so far) to be an immediate or at least faster way to build internal power than what many have experienced by trying to get it through form work.
...

Wow. It sounds like you are describing our bagua standing practices (zhan zhuang). In terms of developing internal power it is said in our bagua that "One hour of standing is the equivalent of 2 hours of turning (circle walking), or equal to 8 hours of forms and striking drills." So it's a very important part of our development to say the least.

Does your standing come from the Koryu arts? And if possible could you describe one of the postures you use?

For comparison I'll try to describe our standing still practice: In the front leg the calve and thigh are isometrically (not the best word but the closest english equivalent) moving towards the knee so the force is going straight out the knee like it's bending. The back leg is the opposite - calve and thigh isometrically moving away from the knee and the force is like straightening the knee. The hips are twisting towards the back leg while the waist twists to the front leg this develops the power of the waist by wringing it out. There are numerous different hand configurations depending on the method that is being developed but basically the forearm isometrically twists one way, the upper arm twists the opposite and the shoulder twists the same as the forearm. If done correctly with lengthening but not tension and strong 'yi' mind/intention directed out to the extremities the body should start to develop a whole body sweat in about 15 seconds, the need to give up completely should come at about 1 minute 30 seconds but over time we push the practice on one side to 5 minutes but don't go beyond that, then switch sides and repeat.


.

[klonk]

Well, well. It only took 26 pages for this thread to end up in its new forum home.

I'm betting it will go 52 pages in all.

Somebody earlier mentioned that this topic had been shopped around to other forums before, with the same results met with here. You know what they say about trying the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

[Bodywork]

Somebody earlier mentioned that this topic had been shopped around to other forums before, with the same results met with here.

You know what they say about trying the same thing over and over?..........

Uhm...you achieve excellence?
You can have your own version of whats insanity...sort of like when people judge others skills and abilities due to their own very real limitations and lack of knowledge.

In my world, if I can’t use it and make it work under stress I’m not interested. So for my part- you may note I never participated in the first twenty odd pages of this stuff or agreed to the idea of "sealing" another fighters root in freestyle VS training. My participation and I might note the real subject that is mentioned in other forums had nothing to do with such an “absolute.” Although the practical means and manner to train and express anjin results in a very real and highly useful skill that works in boxing, MMA, BJJ, what have you .
Since you mentioned those other forums and chose to be dismissive, let me enlighten you as to the results. Hundreds of people met up with the men who were discussing the type of training described here if not the -exact- idea presented. All of those who were the detractors and nay sayers some who were highly ranked in their arts are now regularly training at seminars held by the men they were they were doubting. I just hosted a few this weekend, including the fellow who’s post you are referring to who drove ten hours to train here.

As Doc Stier aptly noted about being able to deliver or STFU. In the case of the forums you are referring to -it was particularly interesting over a few years time to see who wound up not only having to publicly STFU but who then turned around and starting training in the manner they themselves had been dismissive of for years.

I'd be delighted to train with you and discuss each others physical understanding, knowledge, and limitations anytime. It is the one sure way to sort things out and address the good Doctors admonitions to us all. I'm always open to learning and experiencing something I don't know.
Good luck in your training
Dan

[klonk]

Well, all right. I was responding to the general zaniness of the earlier parts of the thread, and to being told MSIF.

[ashe]

Other than that, I have no interest in the thread at all.

then why derail it after it finally started getting back on track?

(yes it took me this long to catch up on the whole thing)

dan, regardless of how skilled you may be, your posts come off as condescending, self aggrandizing, and, i think it would be generous to use the term "cryptic" when it comes to your responses to folks when they pressure you for more details and or some video, especially considering that what vague details you have offered don't sound remarkably different than anything mix or segler might post about their own training.

and this isn't the first topic i've noticed this going on with you.

this is a discussion forum, so when you come swaggering in to the bar, you everyone a detailed explanation of where you're coming from, or don't bother at all.

[Interloper]

But ashe, the thread is already in BTDT! Why would you or anyone expect it to be "on track" when it's already been relegated to the forum whence off-track threads are banished?

Besides, judging from recent posts here, the vast majority of them show interest in what Bodywork is saying, and there has been a lot of positive inquiry and discussion as a result of his current posts. If I were you, I'd boot this thread to the "on-topic" main forum, as it clearly does not live up (er... down?) to the reputation and role of the BTDT forum.

[ashe]

we'll see were it goes from here.

EDIT- in all fairness dan has been rather more forthcoming in his most recent few posts.

[Doc Stier]

It seems to be common in many of these discussions that meaningful dialogue is often hampered by differences of personal understanding between those who approach the subject primarily from an intellectual perspective and those who address the subject from an experiential perspective.

Is it even possible to really understand a subject like this one, using an-jin to seal an opponent's root, just by mentally thinking it through and intellectually analyzing it alone? I don't think so.

Since the technique in question involves specific intentions and actions, can anyone actually discuss the process with communicable clarity and knowing authority without having personal experience in effectively doing it? Again, I don't think so.

To intellectually believe that one understands the subject is thus different from experientially understanding it, IMO. I value experience in application far more than analytical assessment alone.

As such, for those who may in fact have actual application experience with this technique, when you know you know...you know! You know?

Doc

[Bodywork]

As such, for those who may in fact have actual application experience with this technique, when you know you know...you know! You know?
Doc

That was beautiful and succinct, Doc.
Man, on the one hand I agree, But as "understanding it" goes I fear that statement still applies to everyone -in their own minds eye.
Example:
I think the folks in the video in the "horshit" thread would think they are on to something that would work against a trained grappler in the Mifune thread. So they may be convinced "They know that they know" as well, until they try that on someone with better fighting skills and or even just better internal skills. Two very different discussions.

We agree that there will always be those who try to understand intellectually, or mistakenly assign either to much or to little weight to training what really works. Both being a failure in understanding. The trouble arises because any one person, always bases their evaluations either on what they can or cannot make work...or what they have seen their teacher do. So, its interesting to see what others can or cannot do with any given teaching. Isn't it the way of all Martial leanings? The knowledge is out there to be found. The rest is just where we're all at with our own shit.
How many guys do we all know and train with in the very same art- who we consider an embaraasment? Then we turn around and feel someone else from the same background who can deliver...in spades. It's never about the art, its about the man.

FWIW I've never considered it a technique. I considered it "the result" of several ways of assigning body weight without dedication, either pressing-in or aiding to momentarily capture their center to be used..in a technique or set-up. In reality no one with a modicum of fighting skills will receive it that way or let it last for more than a fraction of a second. So the real interesting "play" is whether someone can make it keep happening in randori, set-up to set-up, and then follow and flow with the result-in motion without getting caught themselves. And then what kind of increasing skill and pressure are they doing that against to get better at it.
And for others they may say "Yup I do that." and "They know that they know"...because they think pushing down on someone to control them with their muscle is "it" and there can never be more to it than that.
Thus the never ending debate.
Cheers
Dan

[Doc Stier]

As such, for those who may in fact have actual application experience with this technique, when you know you know...you know! You know?
Doc

We agree that there will always be those who try to understand intellectually, or mistakenly assign either to much or to little weight to training what really works. Both being a failure in understanding. The trouble arises because any one person, always bases their evaluations either on what they can or cannot make work...or what they have seen their teacher do. So, its interesting to see what others can or cannot do with any given teaching.

FWIW, I've never considered it a technique. I considered it "the result" of several ways of assigning body weight without dedication, either pressing-in or aiding to momentarily capture their center to be used..in a technique or set-up.

Dan:

I agree. I don't really consider it a 'technique', either, since it usually manifests as a totally spontaneous response to unplanned opportunities which naturally occur in the course of physically interacting with a partner or opponent.

Like I said before, it's difficult to describe with clarity, so finding the right words is sometimes challenging.

Regards ~

Doc