Is it about time CMA grew up a little bit?

[johnwang]

Nobody takes their car into the shop for a repair and calls the mechanic "master".

Because your master may have some information that cannot be found in the public domain. If you want to steal that information from him, calling him "master" is one of many ways to achieve your goal.

[neijia_boxer]

I have no idea what Chris is talking about - the unicorn style of taiji i learned from the purple sage of the rainbow Taoist sect is awesomely legit.

[Chris McKinley]

C.J. Wang,

RE: "So trying to westernize (americanize) CMA to fit the Capitalist idea of personal gain, and turning teacher/student relationship into business transcation are not going to make CMA grow.". Two problems with this comment:

1) Nobody's trying to turn CMA, or anything else, into anything. This simply is the native culture into which CMA is trying to assimilate. In the modern 21st century Western world, for better or worse, that's simply how things function. If CMA wants to thrive in that environment, it will have to adapt and compete like everything else does.

2) What's certainly proving not only not to make CMA grow, but to actually degrade, is the lack of adaptation to a modern society. A practice of maintaining CMA's traditional culture of collectivism, mysticism, and t3h d34dly, but failing to produce traditionally functional fighters, is turning CMA into a laughingstock. As to rudimentary CMA fighting techniques...at least that person might actually be able to defend himself, which is the goal, remember. The goal is not to learn CMA....CMA is just a path toward the real goal of being able to defend oneself competently.

[Chris McKinley]

Jess O'Brien,

RE: "But being a CMA nerd is nothing new and has been going on as long as people have been complaining that CMA is dying out, i.e. since time immemorial.". The problem with that statement is that it attempts to draw an equivalency between CMA's traditional history on mainland China and its viability as a competitive mode of self-defense in the modern Western world that simply does not exist. Notice I'm not claiming that CMA is "dying out", but rather that its practitioners are engaging in relatively immature and needlessly theatrical behavior, and that doing so is rendering it, however gradually, incapable of producing people with functional combat skill suitable to the threats of the environment in which they live.

Simply dismissing the points I bring up by throwing up the strawman argument of, "It has always been thus" is insufficient to mitigate or refute those points. The circumstances in the 21st century modern West are simply not interchangeable with 18th century China.

[Juan]

lol, I remember at a previous school I was at we were practicing a drill in which you deflected your assailant's punch circled it around and then drained his chi by sliding your hand down his fore-arm as you were cirlcing his arm during the parry. then you proceeded to hit your assailant like 4 or 5 times while he stood there with his arm out. The teacher said that if you did this it would almost immobilize the guy you're fighting against because his chi would be drained. This alone may even kill him!!! I began to wonder if this was truly to work in the street why was my opponent's chi not being drained during the drill and why was my chi not being drained while I played the role of the assailant? The teacher at the school seems like a knowledgeable/formidable fellow who may be able to destroy someone in a fight but some of the methods were questionable at least in my mind.

Although, can I say that this type of thing does serve a purpose. There are some folks who want this kind of training. Deep down inside they know that they are not fighters but want to play pretend. They like the stories of master of old flying through the air and being able to throw chi balls at each other. So these types of schools, I believe fill that need. It may not be good for the arts themselves, but not everyone is really interested in self-defense (even though they may claim to be).

[Chris McKinley]

Shawn,

RE: "Does that make sense?". Yes, if a given individual is engaging in that kind of internal dishonesty. However, not all practitioners are doing so. There is no reason to have to choose between developing shen fa, which is a long-term investment, and rudimentary but functional combat ability. Further, that point does nothing to address the various points I brought up regarding the relatively immature behavior that CMA practitioners display.

[Chris McKinley]

Gotta go for the 4th of July weekend...be back Sunday night. Thanks all for contributing, even if I disagree with ya.

[I am...]

that point does nothing to address the various points I brought up regarding the relatively immature behavior that CMA practitioners display.

My only response to this is:

Yes I see a lot of this, likely more the rule than the exception at this point, and it could be incredibly frustrating I would imagine, if one wished to change it on a large scale. From my viewpoint, my effort is best spent keeping what I do and pass on alive, and adapting, so that I offer my students a clearer picture of what must be done/what path to walk down should they wish to, than the one I was presented with. On the other hand, walking down an, at times, murky path, has led to many of my epiphanies regarding the art and how to keep it alive, things I might not have come across until much later if ever. At least now they can be documented and/or passed on.

[Bhassler]

1. I have never actually encountered a teacher that fill the bill of what Chris outlined as the premise for this thread. I'm not denying their existence, merely stating that those guys aren't ubiquitous.

2. The cultural trappings of and art often take on different significance when that art goes into another culture. JMA are a perfect example-- the discipline inherent in the arts are more a product of Japanese culture than martial culture, in that traditional Japanese arts are to my knowledge all imbued with that same sense of strict discipline. In Japan it's just part of the fabric of the culture, it's only in the west that it takes on mysterious or profound qualities.

3. Martial arts are no different than anything else. They are not especially more complex than any other fully developed art form or profession. Martial skills are harder to master than some skills (building a powerpoint) and easier than others (brain surgery). You can spend your lifetime improving your carpentry skills, but to assume you have to perfect your hammer stroke for 5 years before starting on building a house is a bit ludicrous. The analogy holds true for whatever one hopes to get out of MA, fighting, health, spiritual growth, hot chicks, or whatever.

[Chris Fleming]

I've noticed a few recent threads that spurred me to ask myself why are CMA practitioners so relatively adolescent in their attitudes about combat training and martial arts in general? CMA people tend to come across as if they're living in 18th century China in a bad Hong Kong chop sockey flick. It's as if they've been brainwashed not to realize that most of us on this board live in the first world in the post-Boxer Rebellion 21st century, where weapons that negate "secret" kung fu moves are a common element in modern violent crime. They also seem to ignore that we also live in the Information Age in a free-market capitalist society that celebrates the individual and his freedoms rather than blindly worships the collective.

There are no more "grasshoppahs" and mysterious Shaolin monks, nor super-secret villages where everybody is a first cousin and they're all undefeatable martial arts masters. There are martial arts instructors plying their trade by offering a service, i.e., teaching you how to defend yourself, for a fee. You don't climb a misty mountaintop to wait until you are ready for the master to magically appear. You simply look in the Yellow Pages, like you do for any other service you require.

Nobody takes their car into the shop for a repair and calls the mechanic "master". Nobody takes an oath of loyalty to their dentist. If you sign up for dance lessons, you don't pay for lessons for ten years in the hope that eventually the instructor will find you "worthy" to learn the cha-cha. If you buy a firearm and sign up for a gun safety & home defense class, you're not going to stick around if the instructor says you have to walk in a circle while holding your unloaded gun for two years before he'll show you how to aim and fire at a target, all the while paying him full tuition of course. You don't take out an auto insurance policy with State Farm, pay the premiums for years, and then get told that the coverage will kick in only once you've developed proper "driving body".

Even assuming that CMA still offers equally combat-viable content material, is it any wonder that practitioners of other approaches laugh and snigger at the mystical, satin pajama, death-touch mentality of folks in the CMA? Why have other forms of MA been able to make the transition into the 21st century seamlessly while CMA still does not? Does anybody in CMA even care whether they are being marginalized to the dustbin of obsolescence?

At first I was like "huh" because I have never encountered this with the people I train with and learn from. But I'll give it a go here:


One can make an argument that man in general has emasculated himself almost to the point of no return. What is considered "normal" by the modern male is often some kind of metro, douchey, semi-gay, wannabe. Calling them out isn't going to set them straight. Same thing with martial arts. I was shocked but ultimately not surprised to see all of the men who did their forms in their silk pajamas promptly leave the building when it was time for san shou. That's right, they couldn't even watch others use what is supposedly the point of their martial arts in the first place.

So in any case, real men will hand out with real men. Real martial arts practitioners will keep it real. Crying about the lack of growth in others won't bring about growth.

[H2O]

People find the training they deserve. It's really as simple as that. There is a place for the guys Chris describes just like there is a place for people who fight. Just because someone doesn't do what you do for the reasons you do, doesn't make it wrong.

[Ron Panunto]

If your only interested in self defense then buy a friggin gun. CMA is more than just self defense. It is a way of life, including health, longevity, and a philosophy of living. I just don't see that in MMA, BJJ, or American boxing.

[Juan]

If your only interested in self defense then buy a friggin gun. CMA is more than just self defense. It is a way of life, including health, longevity, and a philosophy of living. I just don't see that in MMA, BJJ, or American boxing.

Are you kidding. To some boxing is practically a religion and most definitely a way of life. Health and longevity? Boxers are the fittest guys out there. They exercise regularly and eat better than most of the general public.

[johnwang]

Sparring/Wrestling is fun. When you catch your opponent's side kick and then take him down, you will get a lot of preasure out of it. When you train solo drills at home and bend your head low and lift your leg high, you will feel great about your balance and flexibility. To me, CMA is much more fun than running 5 miles or bench press 300 lbs.

[Strange]

huh?

her her yes, for deep posts by chris m, one would be well advised to prepare an oracle bone, then start fire on 21st century stove; heat bone on fire; then let it cool, once done observe the cracks that appear; check pattern for answer.

it should tell you where the pre-determined boundaries/parameters/definitions are set. for e.g. cma being adolescent - her her i mean who is this according to? some form of respected authority? encyclopedia britannica? from obama? from EU? from senator palin? or msg from michael jackson?

to me this kind of post demonstrate a serious lack of understanding, and/or is trying very hard to be controversial.