Is it about time CMA grew up a little bit?

[Chris McKinley]

I've noticed a few recent threads that spurred me to ask myself why are CMA practitioners so relatively adolescent in their attitudes about combat training and martial arts in general? CMA people tend to come across as if they're living in 18th century China in a bad Hong Kong chop sockey flick. It's as if they've been brainwashed not to realize that most of us on this board live in the first world in the post-Boxer Rebellion 21st century, where weapons that negate "secret" kung fu moves are a common element in modern violent crime. They also seem to ignore that we also live in the Information Age in a free-market capitalist society that celebrates the individual and his freedoms rather than blindly worships the collective.

There are no more "grasshoppahs" and mysterious Shaolin monks, nor super-secret villages where everybody is a first cousin and they're all undefeatable martial arts masters. There are martial arts instructors plying their trade by offering a service, i.e., teaching you how to defend yourself, for a fee. You don't climb a misty mountaintop to wait until you are ready for the master to magically appear. You simply look in the Yellow Pages, like you do for any other service you require.

Nobody takes their car into the shop for a repair and calls the mechanic "master". Nobody takes an oath of loyalty to their dentist. If you sign up for dance lessons, you don't pay for lessons for ten years in the hope that eventually the instructor will find you "worthy" to learn the cha-cha. If you buy a firearm and sign up for a gun safety & home defense class, you're not going to stick around if the instructor says you have to walk in a circle while holding your unloaded gun for two years before he'll show you how to aim and fire at a target, all the while paying him full tuition of course. You don't take out an auto insurance policy with State Farm, pay the premiums for years, and then get told that the coverage will kick in only once you've developed proper "driving body".

Even assuming that CMA still offers equally combat-viable content material, is it any wonder that practitioners of other approaches laugh and snigger at the mystical, satin pajama, death-touch mentality of folks in the CMA? Why have other forms of MA been able to make the transition into the 21st century seamlessly while CMA still does not? Does anybody in CMA even care whether they are being marginalized to the dustbin of obsolescence?

[Chris Fleming]

huh?

[I am...]

Chris,

Good points, and a good wake up call as well. I would be curious if you feel this view is "truth" worldwide, or is your view presented to those of us that live in the USA. It has been my experience that some of this stuff does exist in parts of SE Asia, the Philippines, and likely elsewhere (possibly China but not that I saw during my travels). Even in these places, the older ways are often not as well known, or pursued, although although they may be well thought of by many in the local community.

[cerebus]

Well.... this "wake up call" has been sounded many times over the years. It basically boils down to the fact that some people are happier taking the "magical mystery tour" and others are happier with the "nuts and bolts reality" approach. In one case, what you're saying is not what they want to hear, so you'll be ignored. In the other case, you're preaching to the choir...

[shawnsegler]

I think it has something to do with the ratio of time needed to actuate the more specialized qualities of internal kung fu with the amount of practice time people are currently willing to put in.

ICMA isn't something that is effectively learned as a hobby,and that's the problem. People think they can do "hard work" in the spare time a couple of times a week and a couple of times a week is not "hard work".

Therefore you tend to get people who are either doggedly persistent which is good effectively reaching the goal, but generally carries along with it some psychological baggage or people who treat it like a hobby and then lie to themselves about their progress "surely since I've been doing this 4 hours a week for 2 years, I must be good"

[I am...]

http://www.ecofuture.org/pop/images/worldpopline2.gif

The world has changed a lot in 200 years. The older ways were in place, often for good reasons. From my viewpoint it is vital that one works to understand why something is done, as this may flesh out our understanding of the thing, as well as allow us to make changes to it that keep it alive. Doing things by rote for the sake of "doing it because it has always been done that way", is a good recipe for the stagnation and death of any practice.

[Dmitri]

CMA did "grow up a little bit". It's called "Modern Wushu"

[Chris McKinley]

I am,

RE: "I would be curious if you feel this view is "truth" worldwide, or is your view presented to those of us that live in the USA.". The reference I made was to most of us on this board. Most of us live in the U.S., or if not, then at least in the modern Western world at large including North America and Europe. Frankly, I couldn't care less what may or may not be happening behind the bamboo curtain in mainland China. Now as ever, they are so clandestine that what they are doing has little bearing on what is going on in the rest of the world, and vice versa quite often.

cerebus,

You're absolutely right. However, for thinking people, that's still not an excuse for ignoring the points I brought up. For the thinker, those points either need to be refuted as illegitimate, or at least substantially mitigated, or they need to be acknowledged and allowed to affect future behavior, regardless to which "camp" one subscribes.

Shawn,

Valid points, but only in regard to the IMA, not CMA as a whole, and then only partially. Functional combat skills in IMA, regardless of how "low-level" they supposedly are, are acquirable in a matter of weeks and months, not years.


P.S. Dmitri.....Oy ve.

[Waterway]

I don't think this is limited to CMA. I have met so many Samurai Fantasists in Aikido (and other arts like Western Ju Jitsu and Shotokan) that I have lost count. Apparently they are following the noble way of the warrior... And don't even get me started on ninjas.

There is also traditional Korean arts like Hwa Rang Do that claim to be following the ancient ways of the Korean warriors, even though Hwa Rang Do emerged after Hapikdo, which the founder of HRD studied, and it looks a heck of a lot like Hapkido.

Certainly you could say in terms of codifying and teaching their martial arts, places like Japan and Korea have been able to adapt better to this than China. As to why that is, well, there are probably numerous reasons behind this (social, cultural, economic etc...) but that is another thread.

One thing I would mention in all of this is the Chinese Wushu Association. My current Taiji teacher has graded through the association, and he said they are undertaking a massive project to codify and structure Chinese Martial arts. My teacher said they have now syllabi for almost 150 traditional Chinese martial arts, and are handing out "Duan (i.e. Dan)" gradings for these arts. So it could be that in China at least, there may be a more "modern" approach to their martial arts in the future.

[shawnsegler]

Shawn,

Valid points, but only in regard to the IMA, not CMA as a whole, and then only partially. Functional combat skills in IMA, regardless of how "low-level" they supposedly are, are acquirable in a matter of weeks and months, not years.

Chris, my point was that there's a basic assumption in most ICMA teaching styles that you are going to sacrifice time to achieve body method as a primary means of attaining combat capability regardless of whether or not the combatives aspect is capable of being taught more quickly than that, and if you're trying to achieve the whole body method thing that can be sort of valid.

So, there's an initial dishonesty that goes on between the student and himself that he's going for something "better" but not realizing that the "better" is initially mutually exclusive of the combat part of the paradigm with the normal quantity of time people are willing to put in.

Does that make sense?

[C.J.Wang]

Those of us who practice CMA should know that, unlike most other martial arts styles that can be learned and mastered relatively quickly, CMA's inherent complexity means that it is an endeavor that takes much more hard, dedicated work on both physical and mental levels to do well. So trying to westernize (americanize) CMA to fit the Capitalist idea of personal gain, and turning teacher/student relationship into business transcation are not going to make CMA grow. They will likely just spawn new chains of "Mckwoons" catering to Americans' fast food culture that teach rudimentary CMA fighting techniques --in 10 easy lessons with a money back guarantee.

[JessOBrien]

I don't have much to add to the controversy, except to say that there have been martial arts nerds within CMA for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. Alongside the body guards, street demonstrators, soldiers, nameless villagers, mountain Taoists, old guys in sweaty t-shirts, etc... In CMA there is room for everyone, and I know that's frustrating to some of us who have a strong sense of what CMA is supposed to be. But being a CMA nerd is nothing new and has been going on as long as people have been complaining that CMA is dying out, i.e. since time immemorial.

-Jess O

[cerebus]

I don't have much to add to the controversy, except to say that there have been martial arts nerds within CMA for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. Alongside the body guards, street demonstrators, soldiers, nameless villagers, mountain Taoists, old guys in sweaty t-shirts, etc... In CMA there is room for everyone, and I know that's frustrating to some of us who have a strong sense of what CMA is supposed to be. But being a CMA nerd is nothing new and has been going on as long as people have been complaining that CMA is dying out, i.e. since time immemorial.

-Jess O

Yup!

[johnwang]

No matter how popular the fast food are, the authentic Chinese food restaurant will still have good business.

[Wanderingdragon]

When someone throws a punch at your face , you may cover with hands forearms and elbows in front of your face as a knee jerk reaction, when a gut shot comes out of nowhere , you crunch and cover with elbows , or sometimes back off and push down on the offending hand withput thinking, when someone tries to throw you down, you may grab on to them and hold on for dear life maybe even taking them down with you, these are natural responses that go all the way back to schoolyard ruffhousing. What you all are missing is that CMA is the grandaddy of them all no need to grow up just learn, what CMA offers are these exact same natural responses , systemized and developed into controlled full force reaction, when you cover your face and evade the punch you return to push hard on your opponents core to knock him to the ground , or strike the chin or nose whatever , the same two arms that cringed if fear become attacking weapons after neutralizing the danger , the elbows that clinch when you defend against the gut shot are able to destroy the wrist that attacked you before you strike out in retalliation, the takedown becomes the takedown. CMA is all grown upjust not for sport.