Weight Lifting for Martial Arts

[DeusTrismegistus]

I know some people are against weight lifting, if that is all you have to add to the discussion then think twice before posting.

What I am interested in is what people think about weight lifting in general and how to structure a weight lifting regimen to help a martial artist the most. Personally I am not of the opinion that isolation exercises are useless as some people think. Its possible and easy to learn to use the body in more than one way for different activities.

So what kind of lifting do you think is most beneficial and why? What kind of intensity? How much strength and power do you aim for in lifting terms? What exercises do you feel are most helpful and which are least helpful or even harmful?

[Waterway]

I'm more of a weight lifter than a martial artist to be honest. I tend to favour Pavel's ideas on training, based on my own experience ( I trained in Olympic Weightlifting for a couple of years).

I think that weight training should incorporate movements that engage as much as the body as possible at one time. Not a massive fan of isolation movements (that said, I do occasionally try and get a pair of tickets to the gun show, as we all have!!).

I change my routine every few weeks, but it usually a selection from:


(the following are with barbell):
Back Squats
Front Squats
Pulls
Clean from Hang
Power Snatch
Front Shoulder Press

(the following are with kettlebells):
Swings
Windmills
Jerks
Snatch
Shoulder Press
Very occasional Bear Crawl!!

(the following using body weight, sometimes with extra resistance):
Chin Ups
Pull Ups
Press Ups
Dips
"The 100" (Pilates movment)
Shaolin Horsestance (well, my attempt at it!)


From a martial perspective, I noticed a massive difference when I was weight training doing some Judo (did pretty well) compared to not doing any doing BJJ (I really stuggled in a got injured very quickly!!).

For deeper stances in Taiji, I found my leg work (e.g. back/front squats, cleans...) to be highly useful. From an Internal point of view, I don't know if it helped, but in terms of getting in to a deep stance and holding it, it was pretty useful.

You've probably heard of Steve Cotter. He studied IMA and is strength coach (wicked skill with kettlebells). Check out his stuff if you haven't.

I can recommend a few strengthing books specifically for combat sports if you want (not too sure about how they would work for IMA though, don't know enough about IMA to help).

[wiesiek]

From my limited experience KBs are best - iron- investment for developing martial strenght.
1 havy training on the end of the weekly trainings routine
or 2-3 shorter ones /20-30 min/on the end of the evenings sessions
is all what you need
i usually suplemented kb`s work with havy medicine ball and "tokui waza"with resistance/bike tubes mounted in wall/
and
dont forget strech and relax after

[Areios]

well I mostly use the isolation stuff for mass, and use kettlebell for whole body power generation. I'm not an expert but if you have a good gym you can add some olimpyc style of lifting. It's very strange to do those stuffs with a bar and not with a kettlebell. (with kettlebell it seems more easy)
And yeah having a strong body and a low fat% gives you and edge. If magic fails your muscles still can move your body.

edit: yeah kettlebells are great, but in my experienc they are not realy move every muscle in your body that intens. It's mostly gives you a good cardio and a perfect back training. I had this myth in my minde a few years back, that if I use "one" muscle in my body the fat is going to reduce there. So I did a lot of sittups every day. the muscles got strong and all, but no fat reduce and also I started to have many lower back pain. And that's what happens when your abs are stronger than your back. So with kettlebells it was 2 weeks the pain was gone. happy ending.

[Waterway]

Olympic Lifts (not the sport of Olympic Weightlifting) can be useful for conditioning, but they do need some coaching! They are difficult, not to mention dangerous, to learn. There is an awful lot of technique involved. Even experienced Oly Weightlifters regularly suffer joint damage/pain while training. Find a coach if you want to down this road.

[mrtoes]

Not sure if this counts with respect to the question since it's not weight lifting per se, but we have chi gung exercises which we do with 5lb weights, one is juggling tea cups. The idea is to try to get the connection through the body to the weight without just moving it with arms/shoulders, though it strengthens those of course. Also standing exercises whilst holding weights. I'd really like to check out KBs at some point. I don't really want to put on lots of mass though so I'm wary of lifting big weights.

[Areios]

yeah holding weigths is always a "pleasure".

[middleway]

Ahhhh a topic close to my heart at the moment!!

currently i am trying to improve my upper body strength for a specific purpose so am working a series of different weighted stuff in order to achieve this. Its taken me a little figuring out to find how to integrate it without losing joint health or mobility but i think what i have now is working well.

Basically the daily grind is :

I do morning work rolling around on the ground to massage. Followed by arm and leg swings.

Press ups = lots of variation in speed, tempo, hand placement, incline etc
Sit ups = again lots of variation.
Squats & Pistols = lots of variation
leg raises = normally worked into the rolling around.

and daily running.

Weight work wise (which is not daily but normally every other day)

Flys, Weighted squats, pistols and lunges weighted, weighted crunches, ben over rows, Bicep Curls.

The main weight work is with the Kettlebell though. All the usual suspects with that.

I continue to do IMA stuff every morning and evening.

As far as intensity with the weighted stuff. I completely change my routine every other week or so, both in terms of how i am lifting (slow, negatives, fast, light, heavy) and how i am doing my cardio training. This way you are working the different types of muscle fibre and the tendons in different ways, keeping the body guessing and generally making much bigger and quicker gains.

I have found no decrease in joint mobility or strength. In fact if any thing i think i have become more mobile, flexible and strong. For sure the all round health benefit has far outweighed any purely MA based stuff that i have done in the past. I am stronger, fitter and have far more energy than i ever have. I know that probably cuts some of the IMA clergy the wrong way but is just an honest finding from doing the work.

Like i say i am training for a specific goal. Would i have trained this way without that goal .... probably not ... and i really would have missed out!

What i would say though is that without the understanding of how to relax my body somewhat i dont think that most of the exersises i do or use would be the same or have the same effect on me. So i guess that will keep the IMA peeps happy.

all the best.

Chris.

[middleway]

I'd really like to check out KBs at some point. I don't really want to put on lots of mass though so I'm wary of lifting big weights.

I think this is probably the biggest myth with lifting weights tbh. Lifting big will only make you big if you Eat Big! Dont eat big you wont get big. simple as that really.

If you look at Pavel or some of the other KB guys you will see that most are Wiry, tendony beasts with not a huge amount of mass. Also i have it on good authority that vlad, and the best of his bunch all use KBs and they are some of the more flexible and smooth moving peeps your likely to encounter.

cheers
Chris

[Finny]

Bench Press

Squats

Deadlifts

KBs

[mrtoes]

I'd really like to check out KBs at some point. I don't really want to put on lots of mass though so I'm wary of lifting big weights.

I think this is probably the biggest myth with lifting weights tbh. Lifting big will only make you big if you Eat Big! Dont eat big you wont get big. simple as that really.

If you look at Pavel or some of the other KB guys you will see that most are Wiry, tendony beasts with not a huge amount of mass. Also i have it on good authority that vlad, and the best of his bunch all use KBs and they are some of the more flexible and smooth moving peeps your likely to encounter.

cheers
Chris

Thanks Chris. I will bear your advice in mind - I think I was more thinking of bench press and lifting rather than KBs when I was thinking of the mass thing. Does the same point apply?

Another thing - One of the biggest things I have to work on is that I am very tense especially in the shoulders (dang computer work) and I don't really want to encourage my tendency to do so much work with the wrong muscles. I find working with smaller weights quite useful for that, taking a resistance and trying to mentally relax the shoulders at the same time. Of course I understand that done correctly KB work shouldn't exacerbate that. It's on my todo list

Matthew.

[middleway]

Thanks Chris. I will bear your advice in mind - I think I was more thinking of bench press and lifting rather than KBs when I was thinking of the mass thing. Does the same point apply?

Another thing - One of the biggest things I have to work on is that I am very tense especially in the shoulders (dang computer work) and I don't really want to encourage my tendency to do so much work with the wrong muscles. I find working with smaller weights quite useful for that, taking a resistance and trying to mentally relax the shoulders at the same time. Of course I understand that done correctly KB work shouldn't exacerbate that. It's on my todo list

Matthew.

Hi Matthew,

Yes even when bench pressing and things, If you dont put the raw materials into your body (ALOT of protien, Aminos and Carbs) then you wont grow big. Obviously that mass has to come from somewhere, and thats your food. Diet has to be a massive consideration in any physical training activity IMO. If you are working hard in anything you do then you really have to fuel it with the right things ... Chi isnt enough. ;-) Its funny, even some really experienced people i know and have alot of respect for don't value their food enough.

the three things Vital in ANY serious physical training are:

Work,
Diet,
Rest.

I feel your pain on the computer work front. Actually kettle bell swings done correctly with help you out enormously. They really open up the shoulders, upper back and lower neck when done correctly with the right intension and breathing.

cheers
Chris

[I-mon]

turkish getups, military press, plate squats, back squats, deadlifts, single leg press, diagonal pulls at all different angles with those newfangled adjustable pulley weights machines.

all done for about 5 sets of about 5 reps each with the most weight i can move with perfect technique.


the olympic lifts are a godsend. i am crazy about the deadlift and the plate squat at the moment.

[neijia_boxer]

i liked waterways post

i've been trying these sets that randy couture uses, each one once a week a few days apart:

Antagonistic Muscle Groups
Heart Periphery

30 reps of each exercise
3 sets

Bench
Low Row
Leg Extension
Leg curl
Military press
Lat pull
Squat
Stiff Legged Deadlift
Bicep curl
Tricep extention

other CIRCUIT

Barbell with 10, 15, 20 pounds
8 reps of each exercise

Once you pick up the bar for a set, do not put it down until all exercises are complete

1. (10lbs)
- Bent Over Row
- Upright Row
- Military Press
- Good Mornings
- Split Squat (Left and Right)
- Squat, then Push Press
- Still Legged Dead Lift

60 secs rest

2. add 5 pounds, Repeat
60 secs rest

3. add 5 pounds, repeat
60 secs rest

4. Same weight, repeat
60 secs rest

5. remove 5 pounds, repeat
60 secs rest

6. remove 5 pounds, repeat

[mrtoes]

Hi Matthew,

Yes even when bench pressing and things, If you dont put the raw materials into your body (ALOT of protien, Aminos and Carbs) then you wont grow big. Obviously that mass has to come from somewhere, and thats your food. Diet has to be a massive consideration in any physical training activity IMO. If you are working hard in anything you do then you really have to fuel it with the right things ... Chi isnt enough. ;-) Its funny, even some really experienced people i know and have alot of respect for don't value their food enough.

the three things Vital in ANY serious physical training are:

Work,
Diet,
Rest.

I feel your pain on the computer work front. Actually kettle bell swings done correctly with help you out enormously. They really open up the shoulders, upper back and lower neck when done correctly with the right intension and breathing.

cheers
Chris

Thanks again Chris. I don't put on mass that easy anyway, and def don't take in a huge amount of protein. I eat waaaay too much refined carbohydrates though Can you do KB stuff by yourself (buy weights watch youtube) or do you really need a special instructor?

Hmm come to think of it I noticed my teacher has some at the back of his room, I'll ask him what he reckons. He'll probably tell me to just stop poncing around with my conditioning though

Matthew.