Weight Lifting for Martial Arts

[middleway]

if anyone can show you how to get the most out of training with equipment its probably your teacher Matthew. i suspect you will be opening up a world of badass workout pain though lol.

cheers
Chris

[mrtoes]

You're probably right but I'll ask him anyway

[Dmitri]

IMO "weight lifting", at least as this practice is known commonly, is bad for IMA development.

You guys practice IMA, right?

[...ducking from the flying dumbbells...]

[Darth Rock&Roll]

dmitri, no offense, but your attitude is exactly why the majority of ima people are weak and cannot fight worth shit.

guts first, strength and conditioning next, technique last.

If you do not build strength you will not overcome the strong no matter how much qigong and form practice you pursue while visualizing golden waves cascading through your body.


lifting weight is key to strength development it is efficient in attaining that end and through proper methodology, best results occur.

to focus on one aspect of the body mind connectivity and to leave the others at the wayside, is akin to falling there yourself.

whoever told you that developing strength through hardwork is bad for IMA is selling you a bill of goods and it can readily be proven on any given day or evening.

[Waterway]

You're probably right but I'll ask him anyway

http://www.londonkettlebells.com/

London Kettlebells run 4 hour courses every month or two introducing people to the basics of kettlebells, covering things like safety and designing your own circuit. Their KBs are a good quality too.

Re "big muscles", aesthetically you may not want them, but large amounts of muscles are often demonized as causing physical problems (e.g. loss of flexibility, slow movement). These are by and large nonsense. For example, Sprinters have large muscles, and are the fastest people on the planet. Male Gymnasts (well, usually male) have big muscles, and have high levels of functional flexibility.

How would big muscles affect IMA? Well, I don't know.

One thing I would say about advice on the internet regarding things like exercise and diet: it is always better to seek out qualified professionals. Most people online (including yours truly) aren't qualified to tell you about these things. The best thing to do is seek people have verifiable qualifications. Personally, all I ever try to do is offer my (anecdotal) experience, but it goes without saying this (or most people's) should never be considered as comparable to professional, real world instruction!!!

[Finny]

Re "big muscles", aesthetically you may not want them, but large amounts of muscles are often demonized as causing physical problems (e.g. loss of flexibility, slow movement). These are by and large nonsense. For example, Sprinters have large muscles, and are the fastest people on the planet. Male Gymnasts (well, usually male) have big muscles, and have high levels of functional flexibility.

QFT

[mrtoes]

You're probably right but I'll ask him anyway

http://www.londonkettlebells.com/

London Kettlebells run 4 hour courses every month or two introducing people to the basics of kettlebells, covering things like safety and designing your own circuit. Their KBs are a good quality too.

Re "big muscles", aesthetically you may not want them, but large amounts of muscles are often demonized as causing physical problems (e.g. loss of flexibility, slow movement). These are by and large nonsense. For example, Sprinters have large muscles, and are the fastest people on the planet. Male Gymnasts (well, usually male) have big muscles, and have high levels of functional flexibility.

How would big muscles affect IMA? Well, I don't know.

One thing I would say about advice on the internet regarding things like exercise and diet: it is always better to seek out qualified professionals. Most people online (including yours truly) aren't qualified to tell you about these things. The best thing to do is seek people have verifiable qualifications. Personally, all I ever try to do is offer my (anecdotal) experience, but it goes without saying this (or most people's) should never be considered as comparable to professional, real world instruction!!!

Sweet thanks Waterway! I note they have a training thing in November, I might pop along to that to get an introduction to the whole thing.

With respect to not wanting to significantly increase gross mass - I think for me it's just a personal preference. Maybe just vanity I know that putting on mass is a good way to increase strength and I know you can do so whilst maintaining relaxation, connection, functional strength and flexibility. I do a reasonable amount of physical conditioning at the moment so I'm not a paid up member of the "tai chi hippies must not sweat" brigade

Matthew.

[Dmitri]

Oh man...
I knew some dumbbells would be flying in my direction for writing that, this is some highly-BTDT material, but dude, at least read what I wrote first...?

If you do not build strength...

I never said "building strength" was bad... Read my post again carefully. Heck, I even put in a caveat, i.e. there are some ways to lift things that are not detrimental to IMA type of development, but even then, for the most part, one's "strength-building time" is still better spent working on other practices.

lifting weight is key to strength development it is efficient in attaining that end and through proper methodology, best results occur.

In EMA, sure. IMA has a different "flavor" of strength.
What is bad for IMA development is the kind of strength that is developed as a result of mindless repetitive lifting of heavy objects.
YMMV

to focus on one aspect of the body mind connectivity and to leave the others at the wayside, is akin to falling there yourself.

And again, I never said or implied any of that.

whoever told you that developing strength through hardwork is bad for IMA is selling you a bill of goods and it can readily be proven on any given day or evening.

And again, where did I even imply...

[Alexander]

I know some people are against weight lifting, if that is all you have to add to the discussion then think twice before posting.

What I am interested in is what people think about weight lifting in general and how to structure a weight lifting regimen to help a martial artist the most. Personally I am not of the opinion that isolation exercises are useless as some people think. Its possible and easy to learn to use the body in more than one way for different activities.

So what kind of lifting do you think is most beneficial and why? What kind of intensity? How much strength and power do you aim for in lifting terms? What exercises do you feel are most helpful and which are least helpful or even harmful?

What Kind of lifting?

IF you can, use natural body mechanics, gross movements. For many years I was a weight lifter who did isolation, 2 groups a day, worked out 6 days a week.

A few years ago, I adopted a "hardgainer" program. Low sets, high intensity, only workout 2x per week. All of my weights went up. I could do much more, was spending less time in the gym, and was suffering fewer problems and aches.

Intensity? I guess you're going to get a lot of people that say different things. I used to be a part of the "just do 5 or 6 sets" crew. Then, a few years ago, I did the HIT training regime (High intensity training..). I don't think i'd recommend that anymore, since It really fries you when you go to failure every set.

Now? Actually, I don't just lift weights anymore, and I don't EVER just sit and lift weights. 100% of my workouts are circuit training, endurance workouts. If you don't know what that is, check out www.crossfit.com for an example. I don't do Crossfit, but my workouts are the same idea.

Take gross movements (especially ones that are natural to the body, e.g. squat, deadlift, pullup, pushup), and then do them one after another, after another. Do them straight for about 30 minutes.

How much power do you aim for?

As much as you can. Always increase the amount of reps , or weights, or something. If you do the same thing day after day, you won't improve.

vary the exercises, vary the amount of reps/time/weight.

In my opinion, don't do isolation exercises. You don't need to. Check out www.rosstraining.com You can get better endurance work anyway using larger body movements.

[Bhassler]

Real functional strength is more a result of efficient movement than muscle conditioning. That said, muscle conditioning IS very beneficial for those of us without perfect body mechanics at all times and in all situations.

For strength training, I also don't buy into the myth that compound "full body" exercises are sufficient unto themselves. They have their place, but generally speaking they reinforce whatever compensations the lifter already has. To improve strength and reduce rather than increase wear and tear on the body, I very much prefer lower intensity but very controlled exercises like Pilates, Gyrotonic, etc. I'm sure there are lots of other good systems as well. This whole idea that you have to be sore and over-tax your muscles to force them to get stronger is a load of crap. I work to the point where I feel the correct muscles have been engaged in the correct manner, and that's about it. I've tried the kettlebells and the hard core exercise classes to make sure I'm not deluding myself as to whether or not what I do really works, and all of it is no problem to keep up with, but I'm not sore in the morning like I used to be, my joints don't hurt, etc. There's a clear line between improving oneself and beating oneself up, people just need to slow down enough to make the distinction.

[Ian]

dmitri, no offense, but your attitude is exactly why the majority of ima people are weak and cannot fight worth shit.

Dmitri was talking about "'weight training' as the practice is commonly known". Is he wrong?

I know that good systema guys are stronger than many people who weight train. And that strength is developed using...

a stick, a training partner, 3 squared meters of floor space.

Kwan Lee's new Strength & Flexibility DVD shows him doing a one-fist pushup. I don't know many people who can do that.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

dmitri, not into having an argument, but what you said was implying that weight lifting and therefore strength development was wrong for IMA-ists.


Or did I read:

IMO "weight lifting", at least as this practice is known commonly, is bad for IMA development.

You guys practice IMA, right?

[...ducking from the flying dumbbells...]

that wrong?

you are saying that in YOUR opinion weightlifting is "bad" for IMA development.
Then you are implying that people who do this (weightlifting) are not doing IMA with yoru second statement.

so yeah, you're gonna get called on that.

and without resistence, how is strength developed? YOu must apply resistance to skeletal muscle for it to grow. You must challenge it beyond the structural weight of your body to grow stronger than what your peak is and therefor you have to use some sort of device (weight) to gain that strength beyond that which is associated with only movement or isotonic/isometric usage.

cool? we cool now? lol

[Bhassler]

Systema has some of the best conditioning and whole-body movement exercises out there, from what I've seen. I also really dig Scott Sonnon's stuff. The trick to either one is to really dig into the "little" exercises that may not seem like they're doing much. It's great to lift boulders over your head or whatever, but that's more the test of the details that have gone into the previous training than the focus of the training itself.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

dmitri, no offense, but your attitude is exactly why the majority of ima people are weak and cannot fight worth shit.

Dmitri was talking about "'weight training' as the practice is commonly known". Is he wrong?

I know that good systema guys are stronger than many people who weight train. And that strength is developed using...

a stick, a training partner, 3 squared meters of floor space.

Kwan Lee's new Strength & Flexibility DVD shows him doing a one-fist pushup. I don't know many people who can do that.

weight training. covers myriad practices with all kinds of devices. so yes, he's wrong.

what you know about systema guys who are stronger is nether here nor there as it is subjective and based on yoru experience.

I know weight trainers who would dominate any systema guy who doesn't lift in demonstrative strength. So, no offense, but you are wrong as well in regards to the idea or implication that systema training trumps weight lifting when it comes to strength development. No it doesn't and that can be clearly demonstrated as well. Not to mention, I am sure there are systema players who also lift weight regularly.

I can do a one fist pushup. The fact that it amazes you more or less reveals that you do not do much in the area of strength development and are probably easy to impress.

Guys, just face it. Lifting is a highly efficient way of developing skeltal muscular strength and you would be very hard pressed to find another method that will bear the desired results in a shorter timeline.

Reality for petes sake. It is there for the observation.

[Bhassler]

You must challenge it beyond the structural weight of your body to grow stronger than what your peak is and therefor you have to use some sort of device (weight) to gain that strength beyond that which is associated with only movement or isotonic/isometric usage.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I disagree with this. It is not at all necessary to use a device to build strength, and the vast majority of the muscles in the body are not designed to move anything like one's whole body weight. So via proper techniques including isolation, leverage, co-contractions, etc. one can easily surpass mere mortal levels of strength without the use of any external device whatsoever-- and this completely ignores the biggest factor in functional strength, which would be effecient coordination of effort. For the most part, one could even incorporate all the strength training they would ever need into their hippy-dippy tai chee dance, if they knew what they were doing and were so inclined.