Weight Lifting for Martial Arts

[DeusTrismegistus]

I'm sorry Deus, I can't believe I missed that... The first line in your first post!!

I would have never posted here if I saw that.
Apologies, and I'm bowing out.

Its no big deal, you are forgiven and no hard feelings.

[Waterway]

Deus,

Maybe as the dust settles a bit I can answer or address a few specific points and questions. These kinds of threads, when left open on the most general level (e.g., "What do you think of weightlifting?" or similar) invite so much mutually contradictory white noise and mythology that they seldom produce much in the way of clear and accurate information....and that's when you post them on Western exercise forums. When you add in the idea of posting them on a forum specializing in material based on Eastern mysticism and esoteric descriptors, it tends to get even more cloudy with myth, conjecture and outright superstition.

Agreed. Forums are not a great place to get advice most of the time when it comes to subjects like health and excercise. Too much misinformation by people that, if we are honest, don't really know what we're talking about. Hence my advice to see out professional help in the real world.

Back to Deus's most recent questions:

Kettlebells work well at engaging many core muscles because they are asymmeterical (as is my understanding). The weight is not balanced evenly, so your body has to engage a lot of different muscles in dfferent ways to stablize the weight. Certainly that agrees with my experience in using KB.

As I mentioned in my first post, I tend to favour excercises that engage as much of the body as possible.

Looking at Oly Weightlifting, power is generated from the legs/posterior chain/back, and the body's posture alters to support the weight. It is great strength training, but it is limited. It makes the whole body strong at pulling/pushing vertically (Oly Weightlifting, done properly, will take your jumping ability to somewhere else). As we know though, there are many more ways to move other than in a vertically from a static poisition. Good excercise for working the whole body, and a great indicator of posture. If your posture is even slightly out, you will feel discomfort in certain areas of your body (back, neck, knees etc...), doing the lifts, and possibly even injure yourself. Bit of painful way to learn the lesson!

Using as much of the body as possible is an efficent way to lift/support/carry weight. How useful is this for stopping injury?? I am not qualified to say, save that (when doing strength training) in Judo, no injuries. Doing BJJ when I stopped strength training, injured after 3 weeks (twice in fact within 3 weeks)!!!

[I-mon]

remember there's something called a training plateau where you start to get "diminishing returns" for the amount of time spent on the exercise.

if you've been doing lots of tricky IMA for many years with no training for maximum strength, then taking up some olympic lifting or kettlebells will give you massive benefits, huge gains in strength (which will then cross over into speed and power if you also train those attributes) with just a little bit of extra time put in.

I would also recommend something like pilates which teaches you how to use your spine and balance out all of the smaller muscle groups, but that may not be necessary depending on what knowledge you've managed to get out of your IMA practice.

anyway the key is to be able to apply that knowledge in the lifts, learning how to do the simple lifts - especially the squat and the deadlift for us IMA types, IMO - properly, and then working to do each and every repetition with absolutely perfect technique.


I'm a total noob at this, in the past I always worked on relaxation and flexibility to quite extreme levels and did lots of bodyweight stuff, but now that I'm using the kettlebells and even more now that i'm doing the basic olympic lifts I'm simply getting much better at everything else that I do, very quickly. I would recommend it to anyone doing IMA, and to tell the truth I would probably start someone doing the deadlifts and squats and the turkish getup as well as a basic bodyweight routine for posture, strength, and mobility BEFORE even beginning to learn IMA.

If i'd known this stuff 15 years ago I could have saved myself a hell of a lot of time.

[everything]

If I like to use 15-25 lb dumbbells, what kettlebell weight would you recommend? something slightly less? (have a shoulder issue so not planning to go much higher than that)

[Walk the Torque]

I-mon,

I agree with your initial comment of doing "tricky" stuff first and then gaining great benefits by adding weight training; but then again that's what I was always taught. you start by leaning how to move your body and then apply that to the weights training.

I have worked on designing exercises that attempt to work on refining and strengthening simultaneously. I took some footage this morning, and I'll post it tonight when I get home.



Conn

[Bhassler]

How do some of you who have done different types of strength training feel that the different methods impact the body? I am thinking in regards to tendons, stabilizer and core muscles, proper proportional strength of the major muscles (important in injury prevention), how it affects joints, and also how the strength carries over to MA practice?

I alluded to it before, but I think that standard weight training doesn't address things like stabilizers, proprioceptors, smaller joints, etc. as well as methods like Pilates, Gyrotonic, Feldenkrais, etc. Additionally, most higher intensity weight training-- especially with heavy weights-- subjects the body (joints, connective tissues, and even often times the muscles themselves) to unnecessary and more often than not harmful levels of stress. The cost in time, effort, and health is not proportionate to whatever benefits might be gained by heavy weight lifting, and if someone is going to do moderate or light weight lifting then they might as well do something like the aforementioned Pilates to get the most out of it. 99% of the time, ANY sort of high intensity training will preclude addressing compensatory movement patterns-- each person can make their own choice as to whether they want to address these issues simultaneously with their conditioning or separate them out.

I am aware of Pilates, but I am not really familiar with Gyrotonic or feldenkrais methods. Could you elaborate on how the second two differ in their effects on the body?

Gyrotonic is similar to Pilates in that it's designed to evenly strengthen the whole body dynamically through a full range of motion. Major differences:
--Pilates will isolate muscle groups to perform movements while using others to stabilize and asking you to relax still others. In Gyrotonic, pretty much everything is supposed to be a connected, full body movement.
--Gyrotonic is more spiral/circle based, whereas Pilates uses a combination of circular and linear movement, with relatively more of it being linear
--Pilates tends to use springs or gravity for resistance and assistance, whereas Gyrotonic tends to apply resistance more as a neurological cueing device- the major resistance is meant to come from contrasting the body against itself
--Pilates was developed originally by an Austrian in the internment camps in Poland during WW1 to help the sick and disabled. It essentially evolved out of one man's genius and work using whatever he learned by doing and probably later by research into current exercise science as well. Gyrotonic was developed within the last few decades by a dancer who had severe spinal issues (among other stuff) and is heavily influenced by dance, yoga, and to a lesser extent taiji. So Pilates has more of an "exercise" feel and Gyrotonic has more of a dance/yoga feel.

Feldenkrais is not exercise as such, but I include it here because it often delivers results associated with impressive strength. Feldenkrais can be considered awareness training, or a method whereby you learn how to learn efficiently and effectively. Typically, the basic rules of a Feldenkrais lesson are not to stretch or apply effort. The idea behind the Feldenkrais method is to create as many possibilities as you can for movement and then rely upon the inherent intelligence of the nervous system to use what is appropriate when it's appropriate. That's sort of a loose summary-- Feldenkrais can be described in a lot of different ways. My favorite: "Well, it's sort of like a pineapple. It's sort of prickly at first but then it's kind of sweet once you get into it and you're not sure if you're digesting it or it's digesting you..."

[Walk the Torque]

What I am interested in is what people think about weight lifting in general and how to structure a weight lifting regimen to help a martial artist the most.

These are a few of the exercises I do which I think of as Bagua specific, with a weighted vest, leg weights and a 9K "kettle ball" Each movement trains strength + sequential co-ordination of spirals and open/closing. Every motion comes from the centre and or the legs. Helps train moving big mass/momentum through the body also.

So what kind of lifting do you think is most beneficial and why? What kind of intensity? How much strength and power do you aim for in lifting terms? What exercises do you feel are most helpful and which are least helpful or even harmful?

Bit too much to answer with the time available, but this type of training has made a big difference to my stability and power.


Regards

Conn

[Waterway]

If I like to use 15-25 lb dumbbells, what kettlebell weight would you recommend? something slightly less? (have a shoulder issue so not planning to go much higher than that)

12kg?? See how you go. You are using a lot of your body to control the kettlebell, so work with whatever is comfortable. 8kg is recommended for ladies to start with, 12kg for men. In either case, changing to a lighter/heavier weight may suit better. If you can find someone who knows what they are doing with a KB, they may be better able to advise you.

[C.J.Wang]

My Bagua teacher's approach to weight training is to work with a partner who's slightly stronger than you and have him provide resistance during two-man drills.

[Chris Fleming]

Actually its the 16kilo bell that is the beginning men weight. And that's if you currently aren't really strong. If an injury is in question, then it may be best to see someone to get that cleared up. In the kettlebell world there have been a couple of corrective programs to come about. Don't know much about them but one is called CK-FMS (functional movement screening) and the other is a stand alone program for neural training and mobility called Z-health. Either that or get some good injury dit da jow if structure and alignment isn't the problem.

[Alexander]

Actually its the 16kilo bell that is the beginning men weight. And that's if you currently aren't really strong. If an injury is in question, then it may be best to see someone to get that cleared up. In the kettlebell world there have been a couple of corrective programs to come about. Don't know much about them but one is called CK-FMS (functional movement screening) and the other is a stand alone program for neural training and mobility called Z-health. Either that or get some good injury dit da jow if structure and alignment isn't the problem.

Right, and what about different body types? Someone who is 6'2" 145 pounds is going to need a different KB weight than someone who is 5' 9" 210 pounds.

[Waterway]

The 8/12 kg are the recommendations I have heard about. Basically all they are are starting points. If you can manage those ok, you may want to change the weight. There are many factors to consider in deciding what KB works best, but you don't know how a KB will work for you until you pick it up!

I am going to say the following: qualified out seek professional.

They are in an unusual order, because me saying them in the usual order doesn't seem to be registering with some people. So I thought I'd try saying it a different way, see if that works

[TrainingDummy]

Actually its the 16kilo bell that is the beginning men weight. And that's if you currently aren't really strong. If an injury is in question, then it may be best to see someone to get that cleared up. In the kettlebell world there have been a couple of corrective programs to come about. Don't know much about them but one is called CK-FMS (functional movement screening) and the other is a stand alone program for neural training and mobility called Z-health. Either that or get some good injury dit da jow if structure and alignment isn't the problem.

Weight size also depends upon your goals. If you're looking to do shorter sets (say 5-15 reps) then a heavy KB for you. If you're looking to do the longer 10 minute sport style sets you'll need to start low.

Personally I do both, but I find the longer sets make internal connections become more apparent. Formosa_neijia writes a nice blog post about it here

I highly recommend Gray Cooks functional movement screening program using the turkish get-up. It's become a staple at my gym. It really does require a spotter who will be strict on your form though.

[Chris Fleming]

Actually its the 16kilo bell that is the beginning men weight. And that's if you currently aren't really strong. If an injury is in question, then it may be best to see someone to get that cleared up. In the kettlebell world there have been a couple of corrective programs to come about. Don't know much about them but one is called CK-FMS (functional movement screening) and the other is a stand alone program for neural training and mobility called Z-health. Either that or get some good injury dit da jow if structure and alignment isn't the problem.

Right, and what about different body types? Someone who is 6'2" 145 pounds is going to need a different KB weight than someone who is 5' 9" 210 pounds.

Depends. Strength is a skill, and I don't get into what is what according to how much a person weighs. You can either press the thing or you cannot. And, for things like the snatch test, the STANDARD bell to use is the 24 kilo. Any man can use that and it will always be challenging to get 200 or more in 10 minutes no matter what your height, weight or age is. For those who choose to build themselves stronger, pressing heavier weights with heavier bells is where's its at. The only time things like height and weight come into play is how strict your military press is going to be. A lighter and shorter person is going to have a hard time strictly pressing the 48kilo and will probably always have to side press it some. That's just how their frame is when compared to the weight, unless they are severely strong, and I never would rule it out that any man can get there.

[Ian]

A lot of people in this thread thus far have been talking about weight lifting- isolation lifts, compound lifts, olympic lifts etc.

There's a clear difference between weight lifting and working with weight or what John Wang calls "equipment training" e.g. heavy weapons, iron rings, single-head weight.

People who are against weight-lifting:

Valentin Vasiliev
Mikhail Ryabko (not in the best shape but kicks ass)
Dan Harden (correct me if I'm wrong)
John Wang

And from the looks of it, these people don't do weight-lifting, either (correct me if I'm wrong):

Luo dexiu
Yang hai
Su dongchen
Sam chin
Akuzawa Minoru
Vladimir Vasiliev

I see nothing wrong with experimenting with what works for you, or weight lifting if you have a specific goal other than IMA, but... I know who I'm listening to

At the end of the day I don't really care. Whatever works for you!