IP/IT/? and actual fighting

[GrahamB]

Interesting thread over on Shen Wu on the relation of IT (I'm talking about Sigman/Harden/Ark, et al) to actual fighting:

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/2 ... #POST31016

I like the quote from Tim:

"...Every kind of traditional training properly organized and practiced was designed to do exactly what you found, improve the practitioners physical attributes in a specific manner. No amount of solo training will ever teach anyone how to fight, this was never the intended purpose of solo practice. Fighting can only be learned by fighting, or at least by close approximations.

It's interesting that perhaps the vast majority of martial arts practitioners don't realize the specific "martial" exercises, "kata" or "forms" they practice are no more useful for developing martial skills in general than correctly practiced yoga or "nei gong" or many other body work systems." - TC

[WongYing]

Aren't specific martial exercise part of properly organized traditional training

[middleway]

i completely agree with Tim.

Both myself and my friend who i often attend seminars with have noted that it is immediately obvious to us those who have fought and train in fighting and those that dont or haven't. Especially seminars where IMAs are presented, you see guys who have trained for years in forms or chi gung or 'techniques' who when any sort of pressure is applied cannot respond .... even in simple 2 man drills.

I am firmly of the belief that martial skill lies in 2 (or more) man training. To get that supercharged is where the IT/IP solo work comes in but you can be a 'good' fighter without that skill set ... you cannot be a good fighter without actually fight training though.

thanks for the quote

Chris

[BaguaBoxer]

Interesting clips of Akuzawa Minoru. Anyone here ever work with him?

[C.J.Wang]

As far as I know, Ark and his students do plenty of partner drills and pressure-tested sparring. Ark himself was a MMA fighter as well. So I definitely wouldn't
label them as the typical garden-variety IMAists that only do forms.

I agree that there are overlaps between Yoga, Neigong, and various forms found in different MA systems. However, like Tim said, every legit traditional systems is deisnged to improve practitioners' physical attributes in a specific manner. Once you manage to find out what it is and have a thorough understanding of it through the system's forms, it'd then become possible to isolate the essential elements by modifying Yoga and Neigong practice to replace the forms.

[BruceP]

Ark competed in sanda, not mma

[middleway]

Interesting clips of Akuzawa Minoru. Anyone here ever work with him?

I think Upyu studies with him doesnt he.

Cheers
Chris

[JAB]

Is it Ark, or his students, that are propogating that he fought MMA? Seems to come up in every conversation about him.

[BruceP]

This shit is all relative.

I've been in the ring with people who would destroy most every ima dude I've met, or have seen demonstrate.

In training and feeling the skill of others in a friendly demonstration or comparison of skill, one person's estimation of a another's skill is based on their frame of reference. What would impress Graham might be vastly different from what would impress me.

When I see one of these IP/IT "I have it and you don't" dudes thrash an MMAer in competition, I'll be satisfied that they can walk their talk. Until then, we're all in the same boat (Titanic?), just on different decks. Graham shines DiCaprio's shoes while he sleeps. My quarters has a porthole. Segler has his own deck chair.

a free bucket of salt for everyone

[Josealb]

lol.

[GrahamB]

I once taught tai chi to the guy who played the owner of the titantic in the film. I'm not sure what relevance that has to the discussion, but I thought I'd mention it.

[bruce]

Interesting clips of Akuzawa Minoru. Anyone here ever work with him?

i was lucky in tokyo last year. rob (upyu) took me to arks class. i had a little hands on time with him and found it to be very good. too bad it was only for one class. i had only heard ark did sanda, i never heard he was in mma comps...

[Wuming]

I have trained with Akuzawa in Tokyo and in the USA. He competed in sanda.

[jss]

It's interesting that perhaps the vast majority of martial arts practitioners don't realize the specific "martial" exercises, "kata" or "forms" they practice are no more useful for developing martial skills in general than correctly practiced yoga or "nei gong" or many other body work systems." - TC

Huh? That makes no sense. One should at least distinguish three types of training: body work, forms and fight training. Forms will teach you more about martial skills than body work, but forms as such will not make you a good fighter. That's what you need actual fight training for. But claiming that I can learn as much martial skill from yoga as from a koryu kata, is just plain ridiculous. And even if you want compare results from yoga or nei gong with solo forms, punching the air will teach you more martial skill than body work - although not enough to claim real fighting skill.

[Josealb]

Tim's comment is within a context. What he means is that you can master the art of making a sword...but that has little to pretty much nothing to do with mastering its use.